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Author Topic: Anyone interested in a fork...?  (Read 15089 times)
Thomas H. Larsen
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Posts: 67


« on: November 19, 2010, 09:13:21 UTC »

(I originally posted this in another thread, but it probably merits a separate topic.)

Hello:

Ladies and gentlemen, I want to point out something. It seems rather obvious to me, but it may not be apparent to some people.

Individuals are leaving the Citizendium as a consequence of the nonsense that's going on. A simple search for user-page blankings in Special:RecentChanges showed that the following users, at least, have left the Citizendium in the past few weeks:


Plenty of others, I'm sure, are choosing to fade out quietly. The Citizendium can ill afford to lose contributors like these, but it's losing them!---through excessive bureaucracy, endless infighting, and constant sniping.

I don't see these things coming to an end any time soon: they are deeply ingrained into the structure and the environment of the Citizendium. At the moment I'm seriously considering "forking" the Citizendium---taking its good parts, like real names, while leaving behind as many of its flaws as possible. Nay, I mean to start a completely new project with a different culture altogether. I don't know if we can do it, but it's worth a try. I set up a personally-hosted wiki a few days ago, and anyone who wants access to it is welcome to e-mail me at larsen.t@basicprogramming.org.

Cheers,
Tom.
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Peter Jackson
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« Reply #1 on: November 19, 2010, 11:49:08 UTC »

Well, I might be, but I'd need more information.
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Tom Morris
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« Reply #2 on: November 19, 2010, 12:11:15 UTC »

I've been thinking about this too: I've been experimenting with Gollum, a wiki engine that uses Git. Distributed revision control means we get rid of a huge amount of politics, and people can work on things in a distributed fashion, with branches and offline editing and so on.

I've tried to explain it before, but failed. Gollum really rocks and could really be the future of wikis.

I'm giving the EC craziness a few more weeks. If the denial of productivity attacks continue, then I'll be saying bye-bye to Citizendium and would be interested in helping setup a Gollum-based port of the site. It'd be highly experimental and free-form but would be totally bureaucracy-free. Sound fun?
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Sandy Harris
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« Reply #3 on: November 19, 2010, 12:21:08 UTC »

Well, I might be, but I'd need more information.

Same here.
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Johan Förberg
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Posts: 256


« Reply #4 on: November 19, 2010, 14:21:53 UTC »

I'm giving the EC craziness a few more weeks. If the denial of productivity attacks continue, then I'll be saying bye-bye to Citizendium and would be interested in helping setup a Gollum-based port of the site. It'd be highly experimental and free-form but would be totally bureaucracy-free. Sound fun?

Tom, are you still on the EC? What message do you think this kind of talk sends out to your voters? We put our trust in you to lead our community! Do it with enthusiasm or not at all.
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Tom Morris
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« Reply #5 on: November 19, 2010, 15:51:05 UTC »

(Replace)
« Last Edit: November 19, 2010, 16:11:59 UTC by Matt Innis » Logged

David Finn
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Posts: 221


« Reply #6 on: November 19, 2010, 16:19:45 UTC »

Tom, thank you for an extremely interesting glimpse of how the Editorial Council is functioning. It is unfortunate that your post has been removed and I hope you find a way to rephrase it that the community can see your message without it being again removed, for I believe it important for everyone to understand how the Councils are implementing the spirit of the Charter we voted on.
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Joe Quick
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Posts: 1530


« Reply #7 on: November 19, 2010, 16:49:18 UTC »

Individuals are leaving the Citizendium as a consequence of the nonsense that's going on. A simple search for user-page blankings in Special:RecentChanges showed that the following users, at least, have left the Citizendium in the past few weeks:


I don't mean to sound like a jerk, but if you really have left the project, you should probably be posting in the non-members section of the forum.  I appreciate that you're still interested in achieving the ultimate goal for which Citizendium was founded, but it is important to know who is actually on board and who is not.
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Matt Innis
Chief
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Posts: 2131


« Reply #8 on: November 19, 2010, 16:53:48 UTC »

Individuals are leaving the Citizendium as a consequence of the nonsense that's going on. A simple search for user-page blankings in Special:RecentChanges showed that the following users, at least, have left the Citizendium in the past few weeks:


I don't mean to sound like a jerk, but if you really have left the project, you should probably be posting in the non-members section of the forum.  I appreciate that you're still interested in achieving the ultimate goal for which Citizendium was founded, but it is important to know who is actually on board and who is not.

David, Mary and Javier: If you have not left the project, please let me know here and now.  Otherwise, we'll need to move you to the non-member forum.
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Martin Baldwin-Edwards
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« Reply #9 on: November 19, 2010, 17:08:29 UTC »

I've been thinking about this too: I've been experimenting with Gollum, a wiki engine that uses Git. Distributed revision control means we get rid of a huge amount of politics, and people can work on things in a distributed fashion, with branches and offline editing and so on.

I've tried to explain it before, but failed. Gollum really rocks and could really be the future of wikis.

I'm giving the EC craziness a few more weeks. If the denial of productivity attacks continue, then I'll be saying bye-bye to Citizendium and would be interested in helping setup a Gollum-based port of the site. It'd be highly experimental and free-form but would be totally bureaucracy-free. Sound fun?

Tom: as I have told you privately before, I am 100% opposed to needless bureaucracy. There are two fundamental issues relating to bureaucracy and the current situation of the EC. They are as follows:

(1) A minimum of bureaucracy is required, to allow any institution to meet, devise proposals, modify them and agree on a compromise final policy. I think it is fair to say -- please correct me if I am wrong -- that you dislike the imposition of any set of rules or order, and would prefer some sort of individualistic approach, where whoever takes the initiative sets the scene and others just go along. Every other member of the EC has openly rejected that laissez faire approach, but we appreciate that it is your own view.

(2) One member of the EC insists on taking bureaucracy to a level that Kafka would have admired, while at the same time ensuring that those complex rules can be circumvented or used to his personal advantage. The council has also openly rejected that approach and is pursuing various strategies to permit the Council actually to function.
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Matt Innis
Chief
Constable
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Posts: 2131


« Reply #10 on: November 19, 2010, 18:28:18 UTC »

I have heard from Mary and she has indeed left the project for the time being, but not related to the current discussion.  She may continue to post under the non-member forum as her account was not blocked for behavior reasons.

David will be allowed to post here as he appears to have re-instated himself.  I have removed {{inflammatory}} responses above.
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Mary Ash
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Posts: 700


« Reply #11 on: November 20, 2010, 00:48:55 UTC »

I have heard from Mary and she has indeed left the project for the time being, but not related to the current discussion.  She may continue to post under the non-member forum as her account was not blocked for behavior reasons.

David will be allowed to post here as he appears to have re-instated himself.  I have removed {{inflammatory}} responses above.

I restored my bio so I could comment at the forums. My writing contributions may halt until the rights of authors are ironed out. In order for Citizendium to grow, it must decide how to handle the author/editor relationship.

MA
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Martin Baldwin-Edwards
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« Reply #12 on: November 20, 2010, 01:12:41 UTC »

,,,sigh

There are very many things that CZ has to do, we know. Just the most basic things (like a legal identity) seem to be the most pressing though.

If you have any specific suggestions or problems that we have not already discussed, feel free to email me. I know that there are editor/author relationship problems, but there are also editor/editor problems here... Nothing but problems at the moment.
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Thomas H. Larsen
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Posts: 67


« Reply #13 on: November 20, 2010, 01:38:12 UTC »

I've been thinking about this too: I've been experimenting with Gollum, a wiki engine that uses Git. Distributed revision control means we get rid of a huge amount of politics, and people can work on things in a distributed fashion, with branches and offline editing and so on.

Question: Would the average person be able to use a Gollum wiki? Wink

The principles sound good, though.

Tom.
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Tom Morris
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« Reply #14 on: November 20, 2010, 01:53:31 UTC »

I've been thinking about this too: I've been experimenting with Gollum, a wiki engine that uses Git. Distributed revision control means we get rid of a huge amount of politics, and people can work on things in a distributed fashion, with branches and offline editing and so on.

Question: Would the average person be able to use a Gollum wiki? Wink

The principles sound good, though.

Tom.

Eventually, they wouldn't have to. The early innovators would have to do a bit of command line faff, but eventually it'd reach a point where we could have public sites and so on.
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Hayford Peirce
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Posts: 3117



« Reply #15 on: November 20, 2010, 02:30:46 UTC »

I have asked the Constabulary, in a formal message, to delete this entire thread.  For reasons that obviously don't have to be explained.
« Last Edit: November 20, 2010, 02:44:56 UTC by Hayford Peirce » Logged

Sandy Harris
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« Reply #16 on: November 20, 2010, 02:55:21 UTC »

I have asked the Constabulary, in a formal message, to delete this entire thread.  For reasons that obviously don't have to be explained.

The thread is perfectly legitimate and should stay.
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Aleta Curry
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Posts: 1894


« Reply #17 on: November 20, 2010, 02:58:16 UTC »

I have asked the Constabulary, in a formal message, to delete this entire thread.  For reasons that obviously don't have to be explained.

Well, that's part of what we're up against, Hayford, I think you'll find it *does* need to be explained to some people.
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http://en.citizendium.org/wiki/User:Aleta_Curry

Lady Astor, to Winston Churchill:  Sir, if you were my husband, I'd put poison in your tea!

Churchill:  Madam, if I were your husband, I'd drink it!
Tom Morris
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« Reply #18 on: November 20, 2010, 02:59:46 UTC »

I have asked the Constabulary, in a formal message, to delete this entire thread.  For reasons that obviously don't have to be explained.

If you were thinking "why on earth would I need to fork Citizendium? They aren't paranoid or crazy about people discussing the possibility of forking or building alternative wikis or anything", think again.

Shout out to the RationalWiki kids: this thread will get you all excited. See? We can be as crazy and paranoid as Conservapedia! Grin
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Thomas H. Larsen
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Posts: 67


« Reply #19 on: November 20, 2010, 03:00:27 UTC »

I think this thread should stay for reasons I outlined in a post on another thread:

The Citizendium is an online community organised, in theory, along the lines of a democratic republic. It is an online community. It is not the Boy Scouts, a local temple, Rotary International, a corner mosque, or a company that we work for. It is a volunteer-based free-content project. There is rather a difference between a meat-space republic and an online organisation: in the former, there is a real cost in leaving; in the latter, one can merely leave. The free-content nature of the project also means that forking is a serious possibility, and where a number of community members express an interest I believe it is morally legitimate to use the resources of the existing community to ascertain and engage support.

Cheers,
Tom.
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Hayford Peirce
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Posts: 3117



« Reply #20 on: November 20, 2010, 03:57:29 UTC »

I will try to rephrase my earlier message that the Constabulary blanked but kindly allowed me to rephrase without deleting it entirely. 

How shall I say this so that I don't get *this* one blanked also?

Here goes:

Call me an old grouch if you like, and I won't really mind, because it's the truth, but I have made a formal request to the Constabulary to delete this entire thread.  I find it truly outrageous that Thomas H. Larsen, who had, until a few moments ago, blanked his User page so that he was, essentially, incognito, is allowed to start, and then perpetuate, a page calling for a direct competitor to CZ -- using CZ resources to do so.

Remember the supposed Lenin quote about "the Capitalists will sell us the rope we will use to hang them with"?  Well, that appears to me to be the case here.

Plus, of course, the fact that Tom Morris, a member of the Editorial Council, is both aiding and abetting Thomas H. Larsen in this endeavor.

I urge the Constabulary to delete this entire thread at the earliest possible moment.

There, Monsieur l'agent de police, does that satisfy your requirements?
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Tom Morris
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« Reply #21 on: November 20, 2010, 04:04:18 UTC »

Remember the supposed Lenin quote about "the Capitalists will sell us the rope we will use to hang them with"?  Well, that appears to me to be the case here.

Plus, of course, the fact that Tom Morris, a member of the Editorial Council, is both aiding and abetting Thomas H. Larsen in this endeavor.

I urge the Constabulary to delete this entire thread at the earliest possible moment.

I urge the Constabulary to exercise common sense and not act out of paranoid fear.

Whose afraid of a big bad fork? If Citizendium can pull itself together and fulfill the mission it has set out on originally, no attempt at forking will be required.

And if Citizendium doesn't pull itself together, it'll be nice to have some people manning the lifeboats.

Calm down. There is no problem here.

Except I'm "aiding and abetting". Perhaps I should go to Internet jail.

After all, the Internet is serious business.
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Martin Baldwin-Edwards
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« Reply #22 on: November 20, 2010, 04:04:29 UTC »

Yes, I fail to see the point in censoring undiplomatic language when you allow open discussion of treason so long as it's polite. It's an issue for the MC to address -- one of the many absurdities that seem to be growing in number on CZ.
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Tom Morris
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« Reply #23 on: November 20, 2010, 04:05:41 UTC »

open discussion of treason

Treason.

Again: the Internet is serious business.
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Mary Ash
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Posts: 700


« Reply #24 on: November 20, 2010, 04:06:41 UTC »

While Tom may be a member of the EC, I think that's right committee, he has every right to state his opinion after all Citizendium prides itself for being a democracy of sorts.

The right to fork seems to be built in most wikis including Wikipedia and wikiHow, so discussion of such maybe upsetting but it is within wiki protocol.

Perhaps it could be bad manners. It's like showing up at a party and bad mouthing your host...

MA
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