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Author Topic: Anyone interested in a fork...?  (Read 14095 times)
Thomas H. Larsen
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Posts: 67


« on: November 19, 2010, 09:13:21 UTC »

(I originally posted this in another thread, but it probably merits a separate topic.)

Hello:

Ladies and gentlemen, I want to point out something. It seems rather obvious to me, but it may not be apparent to some people.

Individuals are leaving the Citizendium as a consequence of the nonsense that's going on. A simple search for user-page blankings in Special:RecentChanges showed that the following users, at least, have left the Citizendium in the past few weeks:


Plenty of others, I'm sure, are choosing to fade out quietly. The Citizendium can ill afford to lose contributors like these, but it's losing them!---through excessive bureaucracy, endless infighting, and constant sniping.

I don't see these things coming to an end any time soon: they are deeply ingrained into the structure and the environment of the Citizendium. At the moment I'm seriously considering "forking" the Citizendium---taking its good parts, like real names, while leaving behind as many of its flaws as possible. Nay, I mean to start a completely new project with a different culture altogether. I don't know if we can do it, but it's worth a try. I set up a personally-hosted wiki a few days ago, and anyone who wants access to it is welcome to e-mail me at larsen.t@basicprogramming.org.

Cheers,
Tom.
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Peter Jackson
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Posts: 403


« Reply #1 on: November 19, 2010, 11:49:08 UTC »

Well, I might be, but I'd need more information.
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Tom Morris
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Posts: 354



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« Reply #2 on: November 19, 2010, 12:11:15 UTC »

I've been thinking about this too: I've been experimenting with Gollum, a wiki engine that uses Git. Distributed revision control means we get rid of a huge amount of politics, and people can work on things in a distributed fashion, with branches and offline editing and so on.

I've tried to explain it before, but failed. Gollum really rocks and could really be the future of wikis.

I'm giving the EC craziness a few more weeks. If the denial of productivity attacks continue, then I'll be saying bye-bye to Citizendium and would be interested in helping setup a Gollum-based port of the site. It'd be highly experimental and free-form but would be totally bureaucracy-free. Sound fun?
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Sandy Harris
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Posts: 369


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« Reply #3 on: November 19, 2010, 12:21:08 UTC »

Well, I might be, but I'd need more information.

Same here.
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Johan Förberg
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Posts: 256


« Reply #4 on: November 19, 2010, 14:21:53 UTC »

I'm giving the EC craziness a few more weeks. If the denial of productivity attacks continue, then I'll be saying bye-bye to Citizendium and would be interested in helping setup a Gollum-based port of the site. It'd be highly experimental and free-form but would be totally bureaucracy-free. Sound fun?

Tom, are you still on the EC? What message do you think this kind of talk sends out to your voters? We put our trust in you to lead our community! Do it with enthusiasm or not at all.
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Tom Morris
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Posts: 354



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« Reply #5 on: November 19, 2010, 15:51:05 UTC »

(Replace)
« Last Edit: November 19, 2010, 16:11:59 UTC by Matt Innis » Logged

David Finn
Non-Citizen
***
Posts: 221


« Reply #6 on: November 19, 2010, 16:19:45 UTC »

Tom, thank you for an extremely interesting glimpse of how the Editorial Council is functioning. It is unfortunate that your post has been removed and I hope you find a way to rephrase it that the community can see your message without it being again removed, for I believe it important for everyone to understand how the Councils are implementing the spirit of the Charter we voted on.
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Joe Quick
Forum Regular
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Posts: 1530


« Reply #7 on: November 19, 2010, 16:49:18 UTC »

Individuals are leaving the Citizendium as a consequence of the nonsense that's going on. A simple search for user-page blankings in Special:RecentChanges showed that the following users, at least, have left the Citizendium in the past few weeks:


I don't mean to sound like a jerk, but if you really have left the project, you should probably be posting in the non-members section of the forum.  I appreciate that you're still interested in achieving the ultimate goal for which Citizendium was founded, but it is important to know who is actually on board and who is not.
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Matt Innis
Chief
Constable
*****
Posts: 2131


« Reply #8 on: November 19, 2010, 16:53:48 UTC »

Individuals are leaving the Citizendium as a consequence of the nonsense that's going on. A simple search for user-page blankings in Special:RecentChanges showed that the following users, at least, have left the Citizendium in the past few weeks:


I don't mean to sound like a jerk, but if you really have left the project, you should probably be posting in the non-members section of the forum.  I appreciate that you're still interested in achieving the ultimate goal for which Citizendium was founded, but it is important to know who is actually on board and who is not.

David, Mary and Javier: If you have not left the project, please let me know here and now.  Otherwise, we'll need to move you to the non-member forum.
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Martin Baldwin-Edwards
Non-Citizen
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Posts: 2689


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« Reply #9 on: November 19, 2010, 17:08:29 UTC »

I've been thinking about this too: I've been experimenting with Gollum, a wiki engine that uses Git. Distributed revision control means we get rid of a huge amount of politics, and people can work on things in a distributed fashion, with branches and offline editing and so on.

I've tried to explain it before, but failed. Gollum really rocks and could really be the future of wikis.

I'm giving the EC craziness a few more weeks. If the denial of productivity attacks continue, then I'll be saying bye-bye to Citizendium and would be interested in helping setup a Gollum-based port of the site. It'd be highly experimental and free-form but would be totally bureaucracy-free. Sound fun?

Tom: as I have told you privately before, I am 100% opposed to needless bureaucracy. There are two fundamental issues relating to bureaucracy and the current situation of the EC. They are as follows:

(1) A minimum of bureaucracy is required, to allow any institution to meet, devise proposals, modify them and agree on a compromise final policy. I think it is fair to say -- please correct me if I am wrong -- that you dislike the imposition of any set of rules or order, and would prefer some sort of individualistic approach, where whoever takes the initiative sets the scene and others just go along. Every other member of the EC has openly rejected that laissez faire approach, but we appreciate that it is your own view.

(2) One member of the EC insists on taking bureaucracy to a level that Kafka would have admired, while at the same time ensuring that those complex rules can be circumvented or used to his personal advantage. The council has also openly rejected that approach and is pursuing various strategies to permit the Council actually to function.
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Matt Innis
Chief
Constable
*****
Posts: 2131


« Reply #10 on: November 19, 2010, 18:28:18 UTC »

I have heard from Mary and she has indeed left the project for the time being, but not related to the current discussion.  She may continue to post under the non-member forum as her account was not blocked for behavior reasons.

David will be allowed to post here as he appears to have re-instated himself.  I have removed {{inflammatory}} responses above.
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Mary Ash
Non-Citizen
****
Posts: 700


« Reply #11 on: November 20, 2010, 00:48:55 UTC »

I have heard from Mary and she has indeed left the project for the time being, but not related to the current discussion.  She may continue to post under the non-member forum as her account was not blocked for behavior reasons.

David will be allowed to post here as he appears to have re-instated himself.  I have removed {{inflammatory}} responses above.

I restored my bio so I could comment at the forums. My writing contributions may halt until the rights of authors are ironed out. In order for Citizendium to grow, it must decide how to handle the author/editor relationship.

MA
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Martin Baldwin-Edwards
Non-Citizen
*****
Posts: 2689


WWW
« Reply #12 on: November 20, 2010, 01:12:41 UTC »

,,,sigh

There are very many things that CZ has to do, we know. Just the most basic things (like a legal identity) seem to be the most pressing though.

If you have any specific suggestions or problems that we have not already discussed, feel free to email me. I know that there are editor/author relationship problems, but there are also editor/editor problems here... Nothing but problems at the moment.
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Thomas H. Larsen
Non-Citizen
**
Posts: 67


« Reply #13 on: November 20, 2010, 01:38:12 UTC »

I've been thinking about this too: I've been experimenting with Gollum, a wiki engine that uses Git. Distributed revision control means we get rid of a huge amount of politics, and people can work on things in a distributed fashion, with branches and offline editing and so on.

Question: Would the average person be able to use a Gollum wiki? Wink

The principles sound good, though.

Tom.
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Tom Morris
Forum Participant
***
Posts: 354



WWW
« Reply #14 on: November 20, 2010, 01:53:31 UTC »

I've been thinking about this too: I've been experimenting with Gollum, a wiki engine that uses Git. Distributed revision control means we get rid of a huge amount of politics, and people can work on things in a distributed fashion, with branches and offline editing and so on.

Question: Would the average person be able to use a Gollum wiki? Wink

The principles sound good, though.

Tom.

Eventually, they wouldn't have to. The early innovators would have to do a bit of command line faff, but eventually it'd reach a point where we could have public sites and so on.
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