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News: POSTING RULES FOR MAIN CZ BOARDS: (1) The CZ Forums are Citizens-only (a "Citizen" is a Citizendium member). Non-Citizens may use only the "Non-member discussion" and "General help" boards, but still must register before posting (it's easy!). Non-Citizen posts elsewhere will be summarily deleted. (2) All must now use their own real names. To edit your displayed name, click on Profile > Account Related Settings. (3) Citizens must now link to their CZ user pages. To edit your signature, click on Profile > Forum Profile Information.
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Author Topic: How about an article subpage for comments by unregistered visitors ?  (Read 755 times)
Peter Schmitt
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« Reply #30 on: November 04, 2009, 07:49:30 PM »

Dedicating a thread in the forum (and adding a link on the pages) should be easy and might be an interim solution.
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Matt Innis
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« Reply #31 on: November 04, 2009, 09:39:28 PM »

Dedicating a thread in the forum (and adding a link on the pages) should be easy and might be an interim solution.

Maybe, I'd still prefer something that either requires the real name or is sceened before becoming public.
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Joe Quick
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« Reply #32 on: November 05, 2009, 07:25:11 AM »

Dedicating a thread in the forum (and adding a link on the pages) should be easy and might be an interim solution.

Maybe, I'd still prefer something that either requires the real name or is sceened before becoming public.

Me too.  Real names are slightly less important if the comments are screened for junk before becoming public.  Could the Flagged Revisions extension be selectively applied to one type of subpage or one namespace?  It would create more work for someone, though it wouldn't have to be the constables and nobody would be required to actually put time into reviewing external comments.  Still, I'm sure someone would be interested in doing it once in a while.
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Dan Nessett
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« Reply #33 on: November 05, 2009, 11:41:27 AM »

Dedicating a thread in the forum (and adding a link on the pages) should be easy and might be an interim solution.

Maybe, I'd still prefer something that either requires the real name or is sceened before becoming public.

Could someone explain why we want comments on articles by those who refuse to use their real names? My guess is for every good comment we might get from an anonymous user, we would get 10 that are : 1) inflammatory, and/or 2) gibberish, and/or 3) self-serving, and/or 4) advocating some position that is so outlandish that they do not wish to associate their real identity with it. When I worked in the IETF almost everyone used their real name (in fact I can't think of a single example of an anonymous contributor). There didn't seem to be a reluctance on the part of IETFers to provide comments using their real names. If you want to be an RFC author, you are required to supply your real name.

I think some of the reluctance of people to join CZ is related to how we present the real name requirement. The first thing someone sees when they click on the sign up link on the Welcome page or the "To obtain a user account, you must request one" link on the Login page is a huge complicated form. Even when I decided to join, I found this form somewhat daunting. Did I want to be an editor or an author? What information did I have to provide if I just wanted to be an author. The information required for both is intermixed, so it isn't immediately clear what is required for one or the other. We might increase our recruitment rate by simply redesigning this page.

Also, the whole notion of "joining" might be the wrong way to approach recruitment. When I suggested to someone that they join CZ, the first question they asked was: "what will be required of me." By framing registration as "joining" we imply that by so doing they agree to some sort of contractual obligation on their time. I think we could increase our registration rate if we concentrated on the benefits to the candidate of registration, rather than on their obligations.
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Dan Nessett
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« Reply #34 on: November 05, 2009, 12:10:16 PM »


The first thing someone sees when they click on the sign up link on the Welcome page or the "To obtain a user account, you must request one" link on the Login page is a huge complicated form. Even when I decided to join, I found this form somewhat daunting. Did I want to be an editor or an author? What information did I have to provide if I just wanted to be an author. The information required for both is intermixed, so it isn't immediately clear what is required for one or the other. We might increase our recruitment rate by simply redesigning this page.


Sigh. I may have hoisted myself by my own petard. I started looking into how we might change the current Registration page. It turns out it is a special page. That means it is implemented using PHP, not wikimedia markup. So, to change it would require modifying some of the CZ specific code. As I write elsewhere, at the present time we are short on technical staff who could do this and even if we did make the necessary changes, we would have to test the result somewhere other than the live wiki. We do not presently have the capability to accomplish the latter. So, right now changing the Registration page is not something we could achieve in the short-term.
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Hayford Peirce
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« Reply #35 on: November 05, 2009, 02:51:55 PM »

A long time ago, I think not long after I had become a Cop, I was bitchin' and moanin' about the Registration page, I believe, and Larry gave me a long link to go somewhere to look at *all* the code that had been used to write the basic pages and said, "Here's where it is, go in and fix it."  I *did* look at the place where *apparently* I could have rewritten the text but I didn't dare to -- the whole thing looked very complicated and, to me, very daunting.  I don't know if any Cop could rewrite things IF they could find this place again, or maybe I'm confused about the whole thing....
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Daniel Mietchen
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WWW
« Reply #36 on: November 05, 2009, 03:10:35 PM »

I was thinking along similar lines as Dan a while ago, and Matt pasted me much of that page's source (without the form formatting that I had a special interest in) into http://en.citizendium.org/wiki/User:Daniel_Mietchen/request_account . Perhaps we can rephrase things there, and he can then re-paste them back?
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Dan Nessett
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« Reply #37 on: November 05, 2009, 03:55:49 PM »

I was thinking along similar lines as Dan a while ago, and Matt pasted me much of that page's source (without the form formatting that I had a special interest in) into http://en.citizendium.org/wiki/User:Daniel_Mietchen/request_account . Perhaps we can rephrase things there, and he can then re-paste them back?

I think we three agree that the registration page needs work. I have just created an enhancement request in Bugzilla for this (see http://reid.citizendium.org/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi?id=20). The work necessary to fulfill this request will require two things: 1) page redesign, and 2) page recoding (this isn't mediawiki coding, it is PHP coding). Since Caesar Shinas is both a PHP programmer and a web site designer, perhaps he can help with both.

However, before we do anything, we have to get some development infrastructure in place. Greg has installed Subversion (the version control package used to hold the Mediawiki code base), but has not yet configured it. When that happens, we can populate the first revision with the existing code. That will allow multiple developers to work on the code base.

The way open source development works is various developers set up their own local copy of an installation and work on the code there. I am currently working on getting a CZ installation set up on my Ubuntu Linux distribution (although the production CZ servers run CentOS, you can use any Linux base for the installation). Once I have that running, I plan to create some instructions for setting up a CZ development environment. (The standard instructions you find on the web do not completely work, since they assume the installation uses MySQL, but CZ uses Postgres. Furthermore, the CZ modifications create some differences in how you do the installation.). Once I have those instructions, I plan to make them available to developers so they can work on the code, fixing bugs and developing enhancements.

However, we need one more piece. We need a test wiki where we can upload changes to the code, so the community can test out any new functionality we develop. The test wiki would also allow us to gain some confidence that any changes we make are solid before migrating them to the live wiki.
« Last Edit: November 05, 2009, 04:13:40 PM by Dan Nessett » Logged

Drew R. Smith
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Posts: 178


« Reply #38 on: November 05, 2009, 04:43:00 PM »

Ok, I've got a couple comments about a few different points that were raised, so bear with me.

In response to Dan, and the lack of technical staff - I have learned quite a bit about mediawwiki and php since your last call for help. I can install and remove extensions, create, rename, and remove namespaces, change the permissions for individual namespaces, etc. I also have still have access to my friends wiki, and can test modifications there if need be. I am willing and able to join the technical staff and give greg a hand if I'm needed.

In response to Dan and Hayford, and the registration page - Again, I have a bit more knowledge of php now. Hayford, if you could point me to the code Larry showed you I could try to work something out.

In response to allowing annonymous users to comment, there is an extension for that, but I've never used it, so I don't know how well it works. The extension is here - http://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Extension:ArticleComments. I still think it would be easier to create a comment namespace that is editable only by IP's.

This can be done by adding
$wgExtraNamespaces[100] = "Comments";
define("NS_Comments", 101);
$wgExtraNamespaces[NS_Comments] = "Comments";

That should automatically create a Comment namespace that is editable by IP's. If it is still uneditable, change
$wgGroupPermissions['*']['edit'] = false;
to
$wgGroupPermissions['*']['edit'] = true;
then add this to each namespace, where FOO is the name of the namespace
$wgNamespaceProtection[NS_FOO] = array( 'edit' );
$wgGroupPermissions['user']['edit'] = true;

Drew
« Last Edit: November 05, 2009, 04:47:37 PM by Drew R. Smith » Logged

Hayford Peirce
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« Reply #39 on: November 05, 2009, 05:07:56 PM »

In response to Dan and Hayford, and the registration page - Again, I have a bit more knowledge of php now. Hayford, if you could point me to the code Larry showed you I could try to work something out.

I'll see if I can find it -- I can't remember if he told me by email or by a comment in a Talk page or in a Forum -- geez!
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Hayford Peirce
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« Reply #40 on: November 05, 2009, 05:10:38 PM »

One of the Editorial Personnel Administrators sent this message to the Kops earlier today:

Quote
As one of the surviving Editorial Personnel Administrators, I would like to request a change in the page Special:Request_Account.

At present, it says:

Editor applicants: please select only the topic area(s) in which you have expertise you can substantiate (you'll still be able to author in any area, though!)

This currently results in people checking 11-12 different topic areas, and one of the main burdens of the EPA role is sorting this down to something more manageable. (Personally, I can't imagine approving more than 3 areas on an initial request, and 1-2 are more reasonable.)

Therefore, I would recommend that the text be changed to read something like:

Editor applicants: please select no more than 3 topic area(s) in which you have expertise you can substantiate. These topic areas are for editor designations only. Like all CZ authors, as an editor you'll be able to author in any area. Any areas not substantiated in your application, or clearly supported by your CV cannot be approved.
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Drew R. Smith
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Posts: 178


« Reply #41 on: November 05, 2009, 05:13:20 PM »

That should be fairly easy. It might also be prudent to set the checkboxes to disable once 3 have been checked.

Drew
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Hayford Peirce
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« Reply #42 on: November 05, 2009, 05:30:12 PM »

Before everyone here completely reinvents the wheel, here's a copy of the text in a long email that Larry sent to a whole ton of people about two years ago that shows evidence of a lot of thought:

OK, as far as the automated editor application, here's what I'd like to have (i.e., requirements & desirements).
 
Requirements for an absolute minimal system (that is, if you want to do anything like this at all):
A checkbox added to Special:RequestAccount, clearly separated, visually, from the other fields, which people can check if they want to be considered as an editor, which
Generates an e-mail to an address (personnel@citizendium.org in our case) when an editor-checked application is received (not approved, but simply received).
That's it!  If (a) you can do this right away with minimal trouble, and (b) if you think the rest of the system will take more than, say, a week to work up, then can you do it?  Note that the e-mail to personnel@citizendium.org would have to be turned off later after you coded the more complicated system.
Desirements for a minimal system (these two go together, and are applicable only if you don't want to create the "more automated system" below):
If editor application checkbox is checked, then confirm that either there is a document uploaded (a CV) or a link (to a CV).  Do not let the person submit the application without one or the other.
Give a way for us to access people's CVs easily.  So either (1) Create a new permission/right (CZ might call it "epa" or Editorial Personnel Administration) within the system.  In this case, only an account with that permission can approve an editor-checked account.  Or (2) do item #2 on http://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Extension_talk:ConfirmAccount#Feature_requests_from_the_Citizendium , i.e., allow sysops to view uploaded CVs/links after an account has been approved, which stay there until deleted from the system by a bureaucrat.
Seriously, if you don't want to go to the trouble of the more automated system, the above minimal system would help us a lot!  Really!
 
Requirements for a more automated system (this would really help get editors involved with editorial personnel administration, or epa--which is something we badly need):
As above: a checkbox added to Special:RequestAccount, clearly visually separated from the other fields, which people can check if they want to be considered as an editor.
When the editor application checkbox is checked and the account request is completed, the account request/editor application is placed in a special queue very similar to Special:ConfirmAccounts.  As to who can access the queue, see below under "desirements."
As to the different acceptance & rejection functions: replace "Accept (create account)" with two new choices: (a) "Create account and make editor" and (b) "Create account but do not make editor".
Upon (a)-type acceptance by an epa (editorial personnel administrator...or sysop, if you don't make a new user group), of course there will be a new kind of e-mail preferably from the epa.  Similarly, upon (b)-type acceptance-and-rejection, there will be a new kind of e-mail from the epa.
Note that "hold" has its own queue separate from the regular application queue.  (By the way, Aaron, the existing hold queue works well, well done on that.)
Completely rejected account requests (both author and editor) could go in the main rejected account queue, if that's consistent with your system.
There must be a way for epas to indicate workgroups.  Multi-select drop-down boxes (with the lists editable by epas) are a "desirement," but at least we need multiple text fields (give us at least three).
When an epa accepts an application, at least one workgroup must be indicated.  If it isn't, the epa is prompted for one.  This needn't be checked against a master list, but again, a desirement is that epas be forced into pre-set choices in a drop-down box.  Note that the workgroups are included in the acceptance e-mail sent to the new editor.
Then, when an epa accepts an application, in addition to sending out the acceptance mail and creating the account, the system adds [[Category:CZ Editors]] and [[Category:____ Workgroup]] for all workgroups listed and adds {{ewelcome}} to the editor's user talk page.
Desirements:
Create a new right/user group (CZ might call it "epa" or Editorial Personnel Administrator) within the system.  Only an account in that user group can approve an editor-checked account.  It's barely acceptable (though it is acceptable at this point) that all sysops be able to do this (constables who are not epas would just have to be instructed to stay out of the editor application queue), but we'd prefer to have the different user group.
Create another, normally greyed-out checkbox, for "mark me as author, too."  This is ungreyed-out if someone checks the editor application checkbox.  When "mark me as an author, too" is checked, then (and only then) do we add [[Category:CZ Authors]] to the editor's user page and {{awelcome}} to the editor's user talk page.  No need to add anything extra or special to the e-mail sent to the editor, though (that's overkill...).
Allow applicants to indicate their workgroups when applying.  Use multi-select drop-down boxes (with the lists editable by epas).  List one drop-down box as "main request" and then list two more as "secondary requests (optional: indicate only if you have real expertise in the area)"  Let these lists be editable by epas: we might want to accept someone for one requested workgroup, but not another.
There is no need for a "rejection" queue for account requests that were turned down for editorship.  However, Editorial Personnal Administrators should be able to see the information (wherever you save the archived CV, links, and comments info) that a person did apply, and was rejected (and when and by whom).
The following would be really cool, and we will have to do it at some point...and this might be a good time to do it: create a new user group (but with no special permissions at this point), for all accepted editor apps.  As a name for the user group, we'd prefer "editor" (not "wikieditor").
Heroic efforts:
Create different application queues (application and hold) for different workgroups or supergroups--by the latter I mean things like "Natural Sciences," "Social Sciences," etc.  See http://en.citizendium.org/wiki/CZ:Workgroups .  Then allow bureaucrats to assign narrowly-focused rights to narrowly-focused epas.  For example, then I might make biology editor Chris Day an epa, and give him special epa rights over a special "Natural Sciences" application queue.  To make this work, we'd need (epa-editable) drop-down boxes, multi-select, for workgroups, and assign workgroups to supergroups.
If you do the latter, however, then it would be great to put the workgroups into the database, and make them editable there...something that eventually we will want to do...but this opens another whole can of worms...
Make the system fully extensible.  Allow a zillion queues to serve a zillion different application and permission types in the system.  (This is probably more trouble than it's worth at this point, but it's worth thinking about a little, just for planning purposes.)
You should probably be aware that at some point, we are going to want to give editors, as a (new) user group, the right to approve articles via a new, more efficient approval system.  This would require that the system keep track of which editor is in what workgroup, however.  We will also want to let authors put articles into a queue, such that the articles in the queue are sent out by mail, for review, to everyone in the relevant workgroups.  These functions will make both epa and editor user groups very convenient, if not practically required.
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Drew R. Smith
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« Reply #43 on: November 05, 2009, 05:48:19 PM »

Wow, thats alot. It sounds more like Larry was asking someone to completely revamp CZ.

As far as the Special:RequestAccount page goes, the basics of what he wants shouldn't be to hard.
There's alot of stuff in the Desirements and Heroic efforts section that seems like it would be better to wait until the charter is finished, mostly because he seems to be asking for changes that would depend on a change in the CZ infrastructure.

I can do, or can learn to do, pretty much everything Larry is asking for, but not without access to Localsettings.php and the code for the Special:RequestAccount page. Hayford, if you can find that message containing the link I can copy and paste it to my friends wiki for testing, and start working on it there. But the creating user groups and pretty much everything Larry asked for other than the change to Special:RequestAccount can't be done by anyone without access to Localsettings.php.

Drew
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Peter Schmitt
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Posts: 373


« Reply #44 on: November 05, 2009, 07:35:37 PM »

Maybe, I'd still prefer something that either requires the real name or is sceened before becoming public.
Me too.  Real names are slightly less important if the comments are screened for junk before becoming public. 

This is not consistent:

Real names should be encouraged.
But if they are required then they they would have to be checked (or else the request were meaningless).
And, in this case: What would be the difference to registration? And after registration there were no need for a special comment facility!
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