Citizendium Forums
November 24, 2009, 08:55:03 AM *
Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.
Did you miss your activation email?

Login with username, password and session length
News: POSTING RULES FOR MAIN CZ BOARDS: (1) The CZ Forums are Citizens-only (a "Citizen" is a Citizendium member). Non-Citizens may use only the "Non-member discussion" and "General help" boards, but still must register before posting (it's easy!). Non-Citizen posts elsewhere will be summarily deleted. (2) All must now use their own real names. To edit your displayed name, click on Profile > Account Related Settings. (3) Citizens must now link to their CZ user pages. To edit your signature, click on Profile > Forum Profile Information.
Click here to return to the wiki
 
   Home   Help Search Login Register  
Pages: 1 [2] 3
  Print  
Author Topic: Creating a "janitor" class  (Read 8271 times)
J. Noel Chiappa
Forum Communicator
***
Posts: 286


J. Noel Chiappa


WWW
« Reply #15 on: April 23, 2008, 03:16:27 PM »

This is what constables are supposed to be doing.  If we don't have enough constables doing the work, we should get more constables on board (if possible).  Constables are also the people who do the mechanics of the work of approving articles.

I have a slightly different take, which is that constables have two basically separate roles, one involving behaviour, and enforcing policies etc, and the other involving access to certain technical capabilities.

I would assume that the set of people who are fitted for both of these roles is smaller than the set of people who are suitable for just the second. Also, there are people who don't want the responsibility of the behaviour/enforcement aspect of Constables (in some cases, 'been there, done that'), but can contribute usefully in ways that need access to certain restricted tools to be able to contribute.

The 'janitor' proposal was simply trying to recognize that reality. (Indeed, we already have people who are sysops, but aren't constables - so we basically already have them, we just don't have a name for them as a class.)

Quote
I would rather not designate people with real power and authority as "janitors." 

But the point is that my proposed janitors would have no 'power' or 'authority', as those words are conventionally thought of - precisely as real janitors, who although they have keys to all the offices, almost nobody would describe as having  'power' or 'authority'.

Quote
That is how Wikipedia administrators like to talk about themselves.  In the beginning, it might have started out that way. But then those people ended up having (and using and abusing) substantial authority.

The difference is that Wikipedia admins do have power and authority (in addition to access to certain technical tools). That would not be true of the 'janitors' I am proposing.

Quote
I am absolutely committed to disallowing that from happening on CZ.  There is a reason we used the word "constables" for people who actually have authority: it's honest.

No disagreement with any of that.

Quote
In short, I've always thought that we should not multiply roles unnecessarily.

Any society, as it gets larger, develops more specialized roles. I definitely agree with the "unnecessarily", though, so the question is 'is this necessary (yet)'?

Quote
As long as we can solve the problem this is meant to solve by simply adding more constables, I see no need for another whole layer of authority.

We're not exactly overflowing with people-power. If making some people who are currently ordinary contributors into 'janitors' makes less work for them, and less work for the existing Constables, I would think that's a good thing, no? (And, again, there's no 'authority' involved, at least as I normally think of 'authority'.)

Put another way, if there are no people who are a) trustable with the key-ring, but either b-i) don't want the badge, or b-ii) are unsuitable for the badge, then fine, there's nothing lost by not having janitors. But if there are such people on the project, and we don't have a 'janitor' class for them, then both they and the Constables are operating less efficiently than they otherwise might.

Noel
Logged

Noel's Citi-page

"There's no sense in being precise when you don't even know what you're talking about."   -- John von Neumann
David E. Volk
Forum Communicator
***
Posts: 188


David Volk at Stingaree


WWW
« Reply #16 on: April 25, 2008, 10:27:24 AM »

Can we name them "Langoliers" after Stephen King's novella?
Logged

Robert_W_King
Forum Regular
****
Posts: 607


WWW
« Reply #17 on: April 25, 2008, 10:37:56 AM »

Creepy.
Logged

http://en.citizendium.org/wiki/User:Robert_W_King

All current posts beyond May 8th are typed in short form (mistakes) or with my good hand (sans mistakes).
Denis Cavanagh
Forum Communicator
***
Posts: 194


« Reply #18 on: April 25, 2008, 12:03:28 PM »

I would reccomend scrapping the basic education requirement for Constabularies and moving the age requirement down to a reasonable 21. That way we could get more on board (And we do need more active constables)
Logged

Denis Cavanagh

I'm likely to give my two cents...

Whether I know anything about the subject or not!
Robert_W_King
Forum Regular
****
Posts: 607


WWW
« Reply #19 on: April 25, 2008, 12:06:47 PM »

I would reccomend scrapping the basic education requirement for Constabularies and moving the age requirement down to a reasonable 21. That way we could get more on board (And we do need more active constables)
There are disadvantages to this.  I'm not so sure we want constables that are impulsive, near-sighted (in terms of understanding consequences) and tenacious.  There should be some standards, but I don't know what the answer is.

Basically, I think if we could clone Matt Innis a few dozen times, then it should be okay.
Logged

http://en.citizendium.org/wiki/User:Robert_W_King

All current posts beyond May 8th are typed in short form (mistakes) or with my good hand (sans mistakes).
Hayford Peirce
Administrator
Forum Regular
****
Posts: 1332



« Reply #20 on: April 25, 2008, 12:41:51 PM »

I think all constables should be 60 or older. But then there is a danger of crankiness and stubborn intransigence....
Logged

Martin Baldwin-Edwards
Forum Regular
****
Posts: 1068


WWW
« Reply #21 on: April 25, 2008, 12:45:45 PM »

Constables need some maturity (which may, or may not, come with age), so it makes sense to have quite a high minimum age limit as a sort of proxy measure.
Logged

Todd Coles
New Arrival
*
Posts: 33


« Reply #22 on: April 25, 2008, 04:52:13 PM »

Constables need some maturity (which may, or may not, come with age), so it makes sense to have quite a high minimum age limit as a sort of proxy measure.

If an individual demonstrates via their on-wiki behavior that they are capable of handling the position, I don't see why we should care what their age is.  The only benefit of it I can see is that with age comes experience in handling numerous different types of situations.
Logged

Martin Baldwin-Edwards
Forum Regular
****
Posts: 1068


WWW
« Reply #23 on: April 25, 2008, 05:12:08 PM »

Well, I made the same sort of argument about members of the Editorial Council. My feeling is that it is more essential for the Constabulary to be securely calm in their activities. Of course, there can always be exceptions and the minimum age should be a general rule...
Logged

Aleta Curry
Forum Regular
****
Posts: 1105


« Reply #24 on: April 25, 2008, 06:00:46 PM »

...The only benefit of it I can see is that with age comes experience in handling numerous different types of situations.

Er...but that's a biggie, no?
Logged

http://en.citizendium.org/wiki/User:Aleta_Curry

Lady Astor, to Winston Churchill:  Sir, if you were my husband, I'd put poison in your tea!

Churchill:  Madam, if I were your husband, I'd drink it!
Denis Cavanagh
Forum Communicator
***
Posts: 194


« Reply #25 on: April 26, 2008, 05:11:21 PM »

I would reccomend scrapping the basic education requirement for Constabularies and moving the age requirement down to a reasonable 21. That way we could get more on board (And we do need more active constables)
There are disadvantages to this.  I'm not so sure we want constables that are impulsive, near-sighted (in terms of understanding consequences) and tenacious.  There should be some standards, but I don't know what the answer is.

Basically, I think if we could clone Matt Innis a few dozen times, then it should be okay.

That may be true and all, but I don't see what minimum educational requirements have to do with this (And am also skeptical that a persons behaviour and personality changes overnight with the coming of their 25th birthday)

To my knowledge a constable is the equivelent of a sysop on wikipedia, with added 'peacekeeping' roles. There is sense to standards, but variable standards such as education and age seem a little off.
Logged

Denis Cavanagh

I'm likely to give my two cents...

Whether I know anything about the subject or not!
Todd Coles
New Arrival
*
Posts: 33


« Reply #26 on: April 27, 2008, 11:24:43 AM »

...The only benefit of it I can see is that with age comes experience in handling numerous different types of situations.

Er...but that's a biggie, no?

Sure, it is an obvious benefit.  But I don't think placing an arbitrary age on this guarantees anything..  a constable should be selected on merit.
Logged

Hayford Peirce
Administrator
Forum Regular
****
Posts: 1332



« Reply #27 on: April 27, 2008, 12:01:13 PM »

Sure, it is an obvious benefit.  But I don't think placing an arbitrary age on this guarantees anything..  a constable should be selected on merit.

Well, I don't think anyone is suggesting that Larry, say, should just make a list of CZ people between, oh, 35 and 45, and then throw darts at the list to select three of them. I think *everyone* agrees that constables should be chosen for their merits and nothing more. The problem is agreeing on the parameters for merits. I think that those of us who argue for some age limitations (and I was obviously joking in an earlier post about 60 being the lower limit) are saying that a lower age limitation is simply part of the merit qualifications. Ie, that the very youngest people, no matter what their other qualifications, simply don't have the maturity and judgment to be constables. Arbitrary, yes, and the age limit is, of course, open to argument. It's sort of like saying, "Well, so-and-so, the wonderkid of tennis, won a professional men's tourament when he was 14, therefore is obviously physically qualified to obtain his driver's license." Or to drink a beer in a bar. Probably, yes. But, maybe, no. Just because he has the physical (and mental) skills to beat a 32-year-old Rod Laver in a tennis match, doesn't really mean he has the ripe mental skills to drive a high-powered car at high speeds. I know that arguing by analogy is dodgy, but these are my thoughts and I'm gonna stick with them....

Hayford
Logged

Denis Cavanagh
Forum Communicator
***
Posts: 194


« Reply #28 on: April 27, 2008, 01:24:05 PM »

Hayford,

I can accept the age thing (With some reservations, but all in all ye have a point) but I don't see a need for an educational requirement. Does someone with 8 years of experience as say, a plumber, have less maturity as someone who stumbled through a four year degree in arts? (And I'm saying this as a guy who is currently stumbling through a four year arts degree Wink)
Logged

Denis Cavanagh

I'm likely to give my two cents...

Whether I know anything about the subject or not!
Hayford Peirce
Administrator
Forum Regular
****
Posts: 1332



« Reply #29 on: April 27, 2008, 02:20:31 PM »


I can accept the age thing (With some reservations, but all in all ye have a point) but I don't see a need for an educational requirement. Does someone with 8 years of experience as say, a plumber, have less maturity as someone who stumbled through a four year degree in arts?

I gotta say that I agree with you on that. The plumber might actually have a more judicial turn of mind, particularly if he hadn't spent 40 years politicking and arguing in faculty group meetings or whatever they call them. I think that this is one of those cases where someone like Larry, or whoever it is that actually chooses the constables, spends 6 months or so reading the posts and comments that Candidate X actually contributes to CZ, then makes a purely subjective decision: "This woman has the knowledge and temperament to be a constable; this guy, Mr. Z., however, although he seems to have most of the qualifications, is clearly a hot-head, overly opinionated, stubborn to the point of intransigence, and, in general, a pain in the neck, as mostly clearly indicated by his intemperate posts in the great Ellery Queen-Barnaby Ross discussion arguments of four months ago. Therefore I will not ask him to be a constable."

I really don't see any other way this can work....

Hayford
Logged

Pages: 1 [2] 3
  Print  
 
Jump to:  

Powered by MySQL Powered by PHP Powered by SMF 1.1.7 | SMF © 2006-2008, Simple Machines LLC Valid XHTML 1.0! Valid CSS!