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Author Topic: Digitizing parliamentary procedure  (Read 21276 times)
Larry Sanger
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« on: April 29, 2007, 07:55:29 PM »

What follows is a mail I posted to the Citizendium Editorial Council, in hopes of kicking off a discussion of parliamentary procedure--something essential to the fair operation of a genuinely democratic body.  Does anyone know of precedents in which wikis, mailing lists, and/or Web forums were used to replicate something like Robert's Rules of Order?

More generally, does anyone have any comments about this?  Please give us your thoughts. --Larry



All,
 
This is an extremely important mail, so I hope you'll read it.

Let me kick off a discussion of Editorial Council procedures with some very
loosely connected assumptions and constraints.   I have definitely put some
thought and care into these remarks, which is why it has taken a while to
get them to you.  Bear in mind that this isn't my final word on any of this,
but instead some remarks to get us started.

I think the purpose of the Editorial Council is not, first and foremost, to
discuss editorial policy, but to settle it.  That is, I see our primary
function as both determining and legitimizing important editorial policies.
We aren't a debate society but a legislative body.

I also see our function as a relatively high-level one; that is, we should
not leave ourselves open to every possible editorial question, because that
might end up hamstringing the whole operation, which works best when people
are self-directed.  In other words, let's not kill off the wiki way with a
bureaucracy.  Let's avoid, where possible, creating new bottlenecks where
whole classes of particular, ongoing decisions have to go through the
Council or its subgroups.

Still, discussion and deliberation is something that should precede voting,
and it should be something that, where appropriate--which is
usually--happens in a broader arena than this list.  Furthermore, when
discussion does happen on this list, I think it is important that it not get
"out of hand," i.e., that the list not become too active.  At least, not on
a regular basis.  Most of us are very busy and simply don't have time for
dozens and dozens of e-mails every day.  If the proceedings are too active,
we in effect shut out those who don't have the time to keep up.  That's
inherently unfair.

But I also think it's important to bear in mind that deliberation can take
place in new ways when it happens online.  There are important differences
between asynchronous discussions that take place online, via a wiki, a
mailing list, or a Web forum, and a face-to-face discussion.  So we can't
simply import Robert's Rules to this new context.

When it comes to making decisions, I think it is best if we can set up
processes that avoid groupthink.  We're all familiar with the phenomenon in
which a deliberative body (those called "committees" are infamous for this)
gets some daft idea in its collective head.  Deliberative groups, especially
when homogeneous, can sometimes be "echo chambers" and produce some quite
silly ideas.

We also need to think very carefully about our purview.  I stipulate that
the Editorial Council is not the single sovereign authority over CZ; no
single person or body is to be the ultimate authority--except insofar the
law requires that there be one.   This council is primarily a legislative
body, and its legislative authority itself is limited to issues we might
describe as "editorial"--as distinguished from, say, behavioral and
technical.  It will be sharing authority on an equal basis with the
Constabulary, perhaps the Executive Committee, and quite possibly with other
bodies later--for example, perhaps a technical decisionmaking body.

Also, we must think frankly about what the role of the editor-in-chief ought
to be with respect to the Editorial Council--bearing in mind that we are
describing a role, and not my personal preferences.  That's because, as I
have said repeatedly, I wish to step down 2-3 years after the project's
inception, largely in order to insure that the project really does become
sovereign and effectively self-governing.  See:

http://blog.citizendium.org/2007/04/26/a-sovereign-community/ 

In summary, then:

*   We need a method of voting.

*   But we also need a method for restricting the issues we vote on to a
manageable set, one that does not create unnecessary bottlenecks.

*   We need a way to prevent over-activity on the list, and channel that
useful energy elsewhere.

*   We should do something to prevent the "echo chamber" effect.

*   We need to think about and agree on the principles behind our
purview a bit more carefully.

*   The role of the editor-in-chief vis-a-vis the Editorial Council
needs to be clarified.

We need to establish the online equivalent of "Robert's Rules of Order."
Some of Robert's Rules can be transferred directly.  Others don't make any
sense in the context of a mailing list and wiki, because they concern the
way face-to-face assemblies are run, where one person can speak at a time.
Is there a parliamentarian on board who wants to take a crack at adapting
Robert's Rules to this new context--or at least to discuss in generalities
how to do so?
Here are some tentative proposals, then, to get the discussion started.  The
following are bare, casual suggestions, that need elaboration and/or
replacement, or even radical rethinking.  I'll post a revised set of rules
on the wiki after we've discussed them some more, and at some point, which I
will determine alone, we will vote on any proposals.  Majority vote will
rule for purposes of adopting rules, although--to ensure that this body
remains true to the vision articulated in the Statement of Fundamental
Policies--I am going to reserve the right to veto proposals.

Council Chair

First, I believe there should be a position of Council Chair.  To begin
with, I would want to occupy this position, although I will want to hand off
the position to someone else--but not until our procedures are well
established.  I am supposing that the Editor-in-Chief position would be an
"executive" one, which can propose rules, but which leaves the bulk of the
effort of working the rules out, and putting a stamp of approval on them, to
an independent "legislative" body.  So I would occupy the Council Chair only
in order to get the body started and off on the right foot.

Making proposals
   
*   Any Member may make a proposal on the wiki.  Nonmembers may not make
proposals, although they may approach a Member with a proposal.  Proposals
should be listed on a page linked from
http://en.citizendium.org/wiki/CZ:Editorial_Council

*   A proposal must be well worked out before it can be placed on the
agenda.  To ensure that it is well worked out, the proposal must be joined
by at least two other Members.

*   Each new proposal should have its own wiki page.

*   Argumentation about the merits of a proposal is not permitted either
on the wiki or on cz-editcouncil until it comes up for discussion.
Proposals should not be announced on cz-editcouncil until they are placed on
the active discussion agenda.

*   The editor-in-chief and chief constable may, in a way to be
determined, object to a proposal on grounds of improper purview.

The agenda

*   The agenda, populated by proposals, is divided into three sections:
queue; discussion; and voting.  "Queue" refers to a waiting area for new
proposals.

*   The Chair's primary responsibility is to edit the agenda, which is
posted on the wiki at  <http://en.citizendium.org/wiki/CZ:Editorial_Council>
http://en.citizendium.org/wiki/CZ:Editorial_Council
That is, it's the Chair's job to move items from proposals, to the queue, to
discussion, to voting.

*   In editing the agenda, a set of rules and procedures will be
established.  For example, there should be minimum time periods established
for discussion and voting, and a minimum time that something can reside in
the queue before some sort of action can be taken.

*   Any Council Member may request a change (addition, deletion, edit of
item, or reordering) to the agenda; if the Chair refuses the change, the
Member may call a vote.  If the call for vote is seconded, then a vote is
announced.  (Such votes should be very time-limited--a 24 hour vote, say.)

*   Alternatively, there might be a committee that either sets, or is
authorized to revise, the Chair's agenda.  The Chair would lead such a
committee.

*   All new business (i.e., an item for discussion or vote) must be
announced on cz-editcouncil--not just on the wiki.

Discussion

*   "Official" discussion of a proposal ordinarily begins only as
follows.  A call for comment on the proposal is posted on the cz-editcouncil
mailing list--which is made a moderated list.  Some specific amount of time
is set, such as 48 hours.  All comments on the proposal are saved by the
moderator until that period elapses; then they are all posted at once.  This
is to avoid the echo chamber effect I mentioned above: each Member offers
his or her initial, non-binding opinion uninfluenced by others.  The hope is
that we will enjoy the benefits of the full spectrum of opinion on a
question.
*   Next, three methods of further commentary are used.

*   First, the proposal is posted on the Forums.  The proposal may not
be posted on the Forums until after the Council has initially weighed in.
Members may, but do not have to, contribute to the discussion on the Forums.
They are asked, but not required, to read the results.
*   Second, on a single wiki page, each member is given some set, fairly
small number of words (specified in the rules) to articulate his or her
position on the proposal.  Voting members are required to read this page
before voting.  Members may revise their statements throughout the
discussion period.  Nonmembers may not comment on this page.  We might set
up a distinct page for similarly brief comments from nonmembers, however.
*   Third, any Member may elaborate a larger position statement on a
page such as http://en.citizendium.org/wiki/CZ:Proposal_0014/Sanger_opinion
These are linked from the proposal page.  Voting members are asked, but not
required, to read these pages.

*   There is no such thing as a filibuster.  Some rules analogous to
Robert's Rules, such as a motion to table a question, will be devised--but
adapted to mailing lists and/or wikis.  Motions are made on the
cz-editcouncil mailing list, not on the wiki.

Voting

*   A vote can be called only after a proposal has remained for a
minimum length of time in discussion.

*   Three editors might be able to "call the question" and end
discussion, if the Chair has not yet done so.

*   Except in rare cases where secret balloting is well-advised, voting
takes place on a wiki page.  We can simply create two columns, "Yes" and
"No" (or whatever the options are), and Members sign their names in the
appropriate columns.  I think it is important that we not offer
comments/justifications on the pages where the voting takes place.  We,
Council Members, merely sign our names.  Nonmembers may not vote.

*   Voting is limited by time.  There should be a strict minimum of 24
hours for every vote, but more time is permissible.  The vote is
automatically tallied and reported by the Chair, or someone deputized by the
Chair, immediately after the closing time.

Notes

*   No one, other than the editor-in-chief, chief constable, council
chair, and (perhaps) some other specifically designated persons, should
serve on any two or more of the Constabulary, Editorial Council, and
Executive Committee.  Perhaps even these should not serve on any more than
one.
*   More specific rules regarding purview/jurisdiction will be posted.

I'll be very curious to hear your comments on the above, which I am asking
for now.  I hope you will put thought into them, and please--let's not have
any one person, including myself, dominate the discussion that follows.
Counter-proposals, amendments, etc., are welcome.
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jdennehy
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« Reply #1 on: April 30, 2007, 12:20:42 PM »

Should there be some quorum for voting. Perhaps some fraction of editors needs to approve of proposals before they are implemented.
JD
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Robert Winmill
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« Reply #2 on: April 30, 2007, 01:41:17 PM »

I see in the future many 100's of editors and many 1,000's of authors.  Editorial issues will be a great time hole for countless numbers.  This is because CZ wishes to be a relevant encyclopedia, one that is accepted as a research tool by; educational institutions, business, and the general public.

A combination of a parliamentary procedure and hierarchy system will be needed.  The combination would be structured into a matrix with the structure of overall editorial policy on one axis and the structure of subject matter areas on the other axis.  Each intersection of this matrix at some defined level would be considered a specific "editorial working area".  This concept based on the "Cost/Schedule Control System Criteria" used in Systems Engineering and Program Management.  The editorial policy could be thought of as the "functional breakout structure" and "the subject matter areas (CZ workgroups)" could be considered the "work breakout structure".  The concept here of the "editorial work area" would correspond to the "work package grouping."

Another thought would be to use the logic of "inheritance" used in object oriented programming, and integrating this into a hierarchy of voting for editorial topics that will be needed at many levels.

Votes within this system could be accumulated within these two breakout structures and then votes would count where there were clear interests by those in the results.

Overall this would prevent a "one solution for all" (and in the darkness bind them) Roll Eyes
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Greg Woodhouse
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« Reply #3 on: April 30, 2007, 03:32:39 PM »

Maybe this is just my professional bias showing, but it seems to me that this document offers a solution to a problem that hasn't been clearly defined. To be sure, in the body of the proposal, you do address the types of problems you hope to address, but I still believe that it is bound to be difficult to develop a solution to a problem which has yet to be clearly enunciated. Are we concerned with managing workload? Ensuring that proposals with merit have an opportunity to be heard? Ensuring that the people asked to vote on a particular proposal are the ones with the appropriate expertise and experience? Developing an approach that will be sufficiently streamlined to avoid unnecessary delays? Please do not misunderstand: it is not at all my intention to argue against your specific proposals, but to suggest that critically evaluating them requires a context, and that context is what we hope to achieve by adopting them.
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Nancy Sculerati
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« Reply #4 on: April 30, 2007, 04:07:48 PM »

For this reason, I think that having fundamental rules and then refining them as actual cases occur is the way to go. We cannot start without a basic outline of government, yet it is in application to actual problems that laws are always defined. So- for starters, the question of how things are organized and how votes are cast and counted must be set. I wonder if someone from the Law Workgroup might help us here?
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Larry Sanger
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« Reply #5 on: April 30, 2007, 09:22:36 PM »

Maybe this is just my professional bias showing, but it seems to me that this document offers a solution to a problem that hasn't been clearly defined. To be sure, in the body of the proposal, you do address the types of problems you hope to address, but I still believe that it is bound to be difficult to develop a solution to a problem which has yet to be clearly enunciated. Are we concerned with managing workload? Ensuring that proposals with merit have an opportunity to be heard? Ensuring that the people asked to vote on a particular proposal are the ones with the appropriate expertise and experience? Developing an approach that will be sufficiently streamlined to avoid unnecessary delays? Please do not misunderstand: it is not at all my intention to argue against your specific proposals, but to suggest that critically evaluating them requires a context, and that context is what we hope to achieve by adopting them.

Actually, the problem has indeed been clearly defined, and it is precisely the same problem that procedural law (Robert's Rules) solves generally: "I see our primary function as both determining and legitimizing important editorial policies."  We must have an assembly (or several), if we are to be a republic as we say we are.  The Editorial Council is an assembly tasked with making decisions about editorial policy matters.  How can an assembly's decisions be made as fairly, wisely, and efficiently as possible?  That is the problem, or rather, the source of all the problems.  Many problems stem from the nature of an assembly: how do you keep people from talking about too many things all at once, and instead focus on just a few items?  How do you keep just one or two people from completely dominating the discussion--as they most certainly will, if given the chance?  How do you decide when to vote?  How do you decide that a proposal makes enough sense actually to vote on it?  Etc.

Robert's Rules were developed over centuries of solving this problem.  If you have some even more creative way to solve the same set of problems "digitally"--using mailing lists, wikis, and Forums--I'm all ears!
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Larry Sanger
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« Reply #6 on: April 30, 2007, 09:24:47 PM »

For this reason, I think that having fundamental rules and then refining them as actual cases occur is the way to go. We cannot start without a basic outline of government, yet it is in application to actual problems that laws are always defined. So- for starters, the question of how things are organized and how votes are cast and counted must be set. I wonder if someone from the Law Workgroup might help us here?

I agree that refining rules as actual cases occur is the way to go, but the question is: who does that?  Who actually decides that rules should be refined and in what way?  Is it the Editor-in-Chief alone?  An oligarchy?  Or, as I say is required by our commitment to a constitutional republic, an assembly?  And then the question devolves to the one I elaborated for Greg above.
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Robert Winmill
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« Reply #7 on: May 01, 2007, 05:43:23 AM »

  We must have an assembly (or several), if we are to be a republic as we say we are.

Creating the units (like the political / geographical divisions for a parliament) that make up this republic will be the key.  Structuring the voting membership into "units of interests" will be an important factor of creating a digital voting system.  Two of the factors that need to be considered are demonstrated (credentials and contributions) workgroup expertise, and community (biology, engineering, etc...) served by workgroup.
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Larry Sanger
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« Reply #8 on: May 01, 2007, 08:27:27 AM »

Please see:

http://en.citizendium.org/wiki/CZ:Editorial_Council
http://en.citizendium.org/wiki/CZ:Editorial_Council_Rules_of_Procedure
http://en.citizendium.org/wiki/CZ:Editorial_Council_Resolution_0001

[fixed the latter link]
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Argyriou
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« Reply #9 on: May 02, 2007, 03:40:58 PM »

I'm not on the editorial council, but I have a few comments about the proposed rules.

First: shouldn't http://en.citizendium.org/wiki/Editorial_Council_Resolution_0001 have something more than it currently does?

Second: timing - consider requiring a minimum 72 hours for most major things, unless you're going to forbid 24-periods from starting on fridays or weekends. Some people will have schedules which make participation on weekends or evenings or particular days of the week highly inconvenient.

Third: timing, again. On the unilateral extension of discussion time, perhaps a limit of ad extra 7 or 15 days would be useful, so that a proposal can't be killed by extending discussion indefinitely.

Fourth: where and who: the mailing list is best for those bits of the process which are limited to EC members; the forums and wiki pages for those bits of the process where wider community input is desired. Consider whether voting should be done in public, and whether vote pages can have editing restricted to EC members only.
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Argyriou
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« Reply #10 on: May 02, 2007, 03:42:51 PM »

Ah - you meant http://en.citizendium.org/wiki/CZ:Editorial_Council_Resolution_0001 , not http://en.citizendium.org/wiki/Editorial_Council_Resolution_0001 .

It's the CZ which makes all the difference.
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John Moffett
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« Reply #11 on: May 03, 2007, 08:46:10 AM »

I have no background in parliamentary procedure or organizing deliberative groups. However, I suggest we try to come up with a set of rules for bringing items to the attention of the editorial staff and pushing them through the debate and voting process which is more streamlined than Roberts rules.

I suggest that any member of the editorial counsel be permitted to make proposals, and I agree that they should be required to get at least one additional editor to second the motion.

There should be a specific web page or forum section dedicated to this function. Having one location where all business takes place will make it easy for editors to keep up to date on the current agenda. So if each proposal is going to have its own location (wiki page, forum section, whatever), they should all be grouped together under one main heading and listed chronologically.

All editors should be notified by e-mail when a new proposal is added to the queue, rather than expecting all editors to check the agenda page several times a day.

I also agree that the only way to iron out the bugs in the system will be to just simply start it up, and let it run its course a few times to see where the bottlenecks and problems show up.

John






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davidstodolsky
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« Reply #12 on: May 19, 2007, 05:25:32 AM »

"if we are to be a republic as we say we are"?
It doesn't appear that this is a republic nor should it be. Voting is, or should be, directly on the issues. Robert's Rules includes both democratic and republican structures (the election of officers). However, almost all of the reasons for having representatives in off-line governance are obviated on-line. Great care should be exercised in creating elected offices, as these are "power" positions (single points of failure) that can lead to governance problems (corruption) or make persons the topic for discussion, instead of actual work.

Having said this, how can democracy scale to the hundreds or thousands of participants, we hope to have?

This question has been addressed and subject to peer review:

Extended abstract:

Stodolsky, D. S. (2002). Computer-network based democracy: Scientific communication as a basis for governance. Proceedings of the 3rd International Workshop on Knowledge Management in e-Government, 7, 127-137.

http://dss.secureid.org/stories/storyReader$14


Comprehensive:

Stodolsky, D. S. (1995). Consensus Journals: Invitational journals based upon peer review. The Information Society, 11(4), 247-260.

http://dss.secureid.org/stories/storyReader$19


The proposal addresses many of issues that have been raised, such as the "echo chamber" or groupthink problem, the role of anonymity, too many messages, the balance of "votes" vs. discourse, etc.

The proposal does not specifically address "voting", it does tend to focus discussion on the likely options and show the support for them. If after a few rounds of discussion a consensus on one option does not emerge, I suggest single transferable voting (STV), also called preferential voting, on the remaining options. 

What I suggest here are two building blocks for a governance structure. They would be widely reuseable in governance procedures. They avoid the widely used ad hoc and constantly revised message "ranking" and status markings (fx. "Support Hero") currently seen around the Web. So, to avoid making governance itself a continuing work item, it would be wise to select elements that are theoretically sound initially.


dss

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Larry Sanger
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« Reply #13 on: May 22, 2007, 07:26:04 AM »

David, could I ask you please to fill out your bio on the wiki and link to it in your signature?  Thanks in advance.  You came in during the self-registration period in which it was in principle possible--but against the rules--to participate without creating a bio.

"if we are to be a republic as we say we are"?
It doesn't appear that this is a republic nor should it be. Voting is, or should be, directly on the issues. Robert's Rules includes both democratic and republican structures (the election of officers). However, almost all of the reasons for having representatives in off-line governance are obviated on-line. Great care should be exercised in creating elected offices, as these are "power" positions (single points of failure) that can lead to governance problems (corruption) or make persons the topic for discussion, instead of actual work.

Obviously, there is a classic debate in political philosophy on these issues; the fundamentals of that debate aren't going to change because technology changes.  As you must know, there are reasons to prefer a republican form of government to a "pure" or "direct" democracy that have nothing to do with technological limitations.  We might disagree about those reasons, but I am not going to be impressed by the mere claim, "However, almost all of the reasons for having representatives in off-line governance are obviated on-line."  You appear to assume that direct democracy is superior to republicanism, if technologically feasible.  I disagree.

Probably the single most important reason for having representatives is that voting on many complex issues that come up is a serious responsibility that should not be put in the hands of people who do not have time to study them.  It is one thing to have a few items on a popular referenda; there, citizens can be expected to inform themselves of the issues well enough.  But it is quite another thing to have dozens or even hundreds of resolutions that come up in a year, asking people to spend a large part of their CZ-earmarked time to the proper adjudication of the issues.

Moreover, consider the price of success.  People have only so much time for a project like CZ.  If they actually do successfully study, debate, and vote on various issues, they will not have so much time for actual work on the articles themselves.  It is far better if the entire community is focused on producing articles instead of rules.

Still, the system we are putting in place will always give the interested nonrepresentative a prominent platform in which to be heard by at least many of the representatives; for the Editorial Council, deliberation takes place here in these Forums, and is open to all.

There is another reason for having representatives, of course--an analogue to a classic reason against pure democracy--namely, that many specific issues are better handled by persons with certain level of training and experience, which the process of election (or other democratic selection) will help guarantee the voting populace has.  We are bound to come up against some extremely difficult editorial decisions that I think are ultimately better handled by experts.

I find the issues here and raised by your paper very interesting, and I don't consider the debate over.  It would have been better if you had raised your objections earlier, since we've been using the language of a representative republic since last September.
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