subpages and approval

[Joe Quick]

This topic has been discussed in a few different places but I thought we should talk it over in one centralized location.

So, do we approve subpages separately or do we approve everything at once?

It seems to me that we ought to approve the whole set together but re-approval of individual subpages might make sense.  I don't have any real arguments for this, however, so I'd like to here what people think.

[Chris Day]

Here are some snippets from recent conversations I have been involved in.

http://en.citizendium.org/wiki/Template_talk:Subpages4

Can you bring me up to speed on your latest thoughts vis-a-vis subpage approval? Where has the discussion taken place, only in the forums? This seems very hard. Do we approve each subpage individually? Presumably. Does that mean we have draft pages for each subpage? Surely not. What a nightmare. So then...? Well, I have ideas but I will spare you right now. --Larry Sanger 09:41, 25 July 2007 (CDT)

I have suggested in the past that approval should deal the whole cluster. It would be far too complicated to approve subpages seperately (see the old discussion here). Since each cluster is under one approval umbrella i think it is best that there is only one talk page per cluster and thus the talk pages for each subpage can serve as a draft. Personally, I don't think this would be too complicated and the Talk:Draft page would serve this purpose well (a big talk button on the navigation box will help people get there very easily). In biology we redirect the gallery talk and the main aticle talk to the Draft talk page so we know a centralised talk page can work. Chris Day  10:32, 25 July 2007 (CDT)

Continuing from the comment above I wrote this on Larry's talk page http://en.citizendium.org/wiki/User_talk:Larry_Sanger#Thoughts_on_approval

Even before subpages were official we were wrestling with this concept with respect to the gallery pages (see the old discussion here). Obviously the comments there do not take into account the more complex subpage grouping we are currently attempting simulate into the approval process, nevertheless, it is probably a good starting point. Also note in that discussion the idea of an Approval area was being discussed in more detail. I still consider this an important tool for approval and it will be easier to implement with the new subpage environment. I will try and reformulate these ideas taking into account the new CZ environment. Chris Day  10:50, 26 July 2007 (CDT)

Larry wrote the following thoughts at http://en.citizendium.org/wiki/CZ:Subpage_Pilot#Approval_of_subpages

Provisionally, we will say that individual subpages cannot be approved. Instead, an entire cluster (or infoset) is approved at the same time.
Note that once an article is approved, all new edits to subpages will edit the approved version of the subpages. Such edits must be aimed, therefore, always at improving the article, and editors should pay special attention to such edits. We do not want to forbid or even discourage editing of subpages of approved articles, but we want to apply a higher standard in responding to such edits. In particular, "rough drafts" of new sections, paragraphs, columns, etc., or entire new subpages are discouraged; each saved draft should be presentable to the public.

Finally, check out some of the features i added to the tab subpage experiment with approval of subpages in mind.  I am not endoring this idea but rather checking out the feasibility of the concept.
Original comment found at http://en.citizendium.org/wiki/Template_talk:Subpages#For_those_following_at_home

Check out the subpage templates on Chiropractic and New York City , what do you think?

Short version.  I've added some permanent buttons (possible media wiki could do this now?) See ''old/new'' button particularly.  It allows comparisons between the most recent draft version and approved in chiropractic. Also it can be used to compare the subpages with the subpage talk pages, in case we decide to have a working version of subpages in the talk page of approved article. Sounds a bit strange I know, but if the article is approved and all the subpages are potected it is that or a new draft page for every subpage.  Either is not great. Chris Day 20:44, 27 July 2007 (CDT)

More ideas are welcome.

[Joe Quick]

Larry wrote the following thoughts at http://en.citizendium.org/wiki/CZ:Subpage_Pilot#Approval_of_subpages

Provisionally, we will say that individual subpages cannot be approved. Instead, an entire cluster (or infoset) is approved at the same time.
Note that once an article is approved, all new edits to subpages will edit the approved version of the subpages. Such edits must be aimed, therefore, always at improving the article, and editors should pay special attention to such edits. We do not want to forbid or even discourage editing of subpages of approved articles, but we want to apply a higher standard in responding to such edits. In particular, "rough drafts" of new sections, paragraphs, columns, etc., or entire new subpages are discouraged; each saved draft should be presentable to the public.

Okay.  I don't think this is sufficient.  If subpages are going to be approved, then we'll need to lock them.  Otherwise, and even if editors keep a close eye on them, there will be periods when unapproved edits will be shown on an approved page.  Normally this probably won't be a problem but we have to consider that low quality material will seep in and reduce the quality of our reference work and that any malevolent souls who might enter our community will go straight to the unprotected, approved pages to work their mischief. (Thinking on a bit of a tangent here, we might eventually need to lock definitions as well.)

So we need to draft subpages somewhere.  Talk pages are okay as long as it's clear to contributors that that is where they should be going, but it has to happen somewhere.

[Chris Day]

So we need to draft subpages somewhere.  Talk pages are okay as long as it's clear to contributors that that is where they should be going, but it has to happen somewhere.

I agree but where?  Here is one thought.  If the talk page becomes forum based there is no need for talk pages or a Talk: namespace. Could we change it to Draft: namespace?

We already have an approval subpage and an info subpage (see examples in biology  Biology/Approval Biology/Info) so those take care of any possible uses for the talk Namespace.  Then the core pages for the biology article would be

Biology, Draft:Biology,
Biology/Subpages, Draft:Biology/Subpages,
Biology/Approval and Template:Biology/Info 

Admittedly Draft:Biology/Approval and Template_draft:Biology/Info would be a little odd but we would not use them, I assume.  Then, at the top, the 'Discussion' tab could be renamed 'Draft' and a prominent link to the Biology cluster (or whatever) forum obvious on each page.

Even more odd, User_draft:Chris Day ! Draft me for what though?

[Larry Sanger]

Or, of course, simply make all the draft subpages, subpages of [[TopicName/Draft]].

So, before being approved, [[New York City/Links]] lives at [[New York City/Draft/Links]].

My concern isn't about where the pages live, although that's complicated enough.  My concern is with the logistical overhead of approving all the subpages, and moving them, and the whole mess.  And it really would be a huge mess.  If you don't think so, map out the process for me now in detail, and convince me it isn't a huge mess, even just to describe, much less actually perform once, much less perform zillions of times.

That's why I say we simply take our chances with bad edits on subpages.

There is another solution, by the way...use software that requires that all edits be approved.  But for obvious reasons perhaps this makes me nervous.  :-)

[Joe Quick]

My concern is with the logistical overhead of approving all the subpages, and moving them, and the whole mess.

As things stand, you're absolutely right about that.  The number of steps that constables have to go through to make the approval happen would be ridiculous if we were asking them to repeat them on every subpage.

But I seem to recall a discussion about streamlining the approval process.  Has anything come of this?  I envision a button that only editors can see which they can click to make all of that stuff happen automatically. 

And subpages probably don't need the editing period that main articles are given before the approval is finalized.  It would simply entail an editor scanning recent changes to a page and thinking, "Yep.  Those look good." Click!

I'm just worried that we're going to have far too many subpages to ask our editors to keep track of all of them.  And low quality edits really will undercut the goals of the subpages initiative.  Larry, imagine what would become (and be said) of your web directory (For others, see: What should we do about Internet "cruft"?) if our ability to monitor it's quality and reliability slips away from us.

[Matt Innis]

I've done most of the approvals I think and I can says that Chris has made it so much easier and taken lots of steps out of the process so that creating draft pages of the subpages may not be to difficult.  As long as we can keep it to three steps 1)copy subpage 2)move subpage to subpage/draft 3)paste over redirect that the move made at subpage.  If I had to do that with 5 or 6 pages, it would only be another 5 or 10 minutes.  The problem may be more for Chris to keep them all included in his clusters and all working together.

There are probably still some steps that we can automate to make this easier as well.  It is just a matter of deciding what we want to do, giving Chris the time to create the template process, and the several 'trials' to work out the kinks.  I have no doubt we can end up with something user friendly and maintainable.

[Chris Day]

The problem may be more for Chris to keep them all included in his clusters and all working together.

Shouldn't be a problem except for time.

[Larry Sanger]

Again, I just think it's impossibly long and complicated, logistically speaking, even with a few things being automated by the metadata page.  We could do it, perhaps, if what we're using subpages and templates to do were built into the software.  It will be built into the software, too--just wait a bit.