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Author Topic: What software will we be running?  (Read 18784 times)
Peter Hitchmough
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« on: September 26, 2006, 03:15:29 PM »

Mediawiki?

If a launch is imminent then we actually have to confirm the main wiki tool, at least for startup. The wiki data itself will probably be amenable to a migration to another tool later.

Steps back from flames. Wink

-Peter
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Nicholas Kaye-Smith
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« Reply #1 on: September 26, 2006, 03:24:09 PM »

Larry has stated before, I think that the software will be Mediawiki.

In my opinion, Mediawiki is one of the best wikis, because of the wide variety of extensions available (semantic mediawiki is great) and its relatively easy to maintain (there's quite a bit of documentation available).

Another great wiki is TWiki, but the lead developer needs to be experienced in it.

Dokuwiki is easy to maintain, but light on features.

So yes, Mediawiki.

« Last Edit: September 26, 2006, 09:04:19 PM by Nicholas Kaye-Smith » Logged

Jason "Electrawn" Potkanski
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« Reply #2 on: September 26, 2006, 04:29:20 PM »

I personally feel a CMS may be a better design, especially for user management.

I have been pushing for XOOPS (www.xoops.org) and mediawiki as a module (http://dev.xoops.org/modules/xfmod/project/?mediawiki)

This supports a bunch of goals:

1. Scale. Novell uses Xoops. Scales well.
2. Security. Wrapping things around Xoops is a double check against injection attacks and the like.
3. Caching. Xoops Dynamic caching is pretty slick.

4. All of Xoops features, like forums, blog, modules...etc. Better user management.
5. Many more developer eyeballs are on Xoops and not so many on mediawiki.

6. Xoops is entirely OO (object orientated), MEdiawiki is a procedural hack upon hack upon hack. It gets pretty ugly and impossible to add new features.
7. With Mediawiki OO, it would scale better, easier to maintain and customize, etc...all the perceived benefits of OO.

Ideally, I would like to rewrite mediawiki from the ground up in OO style. Since that may not work well, the best way is to wrap it in a bow and let the "present" develop into something pretty over time.

-Jtp Electrawn

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Nicholas Kaye-Smith
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« Reply #3 on: September 26, 2006, 04:35:58 PM »

Maybe, but Mediawiki is still Mediawiki.
Just because XOOPS scales doesn't mean Mediawiki will if a bridge is made between them. Same goes for most of your points, although I am not familiar with the exact nature of the integration.
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Larry Sanger
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« Reply #4 on: September 26, 2006, 09:32:09 PM »

There's a simple and straightforward reason that we must at least launch with MediaWiki, namely, we can't afford anything else in terms either of money or time.  One of the reasons Wikipedia has been a modest success is that good (not perfect) software was written specifically for the task of community encyclopedia building.  As long as we are collaboratively writing encyclopedia articles, we'll probably be using some version of MediaWiki.

I'm all in favor of keeping the system as simple as possible.  If I have anything to do with it, we'll be deleting features, not adding them.  Features get in the way of content, and simplicity reveals content.  And content is king!

Ultimately, with all due respect to programmers, the choice of system should not be left to programmers, who fall in love with particular technologies, and naturally want to do cool stuff, but often they just don't care as much as they should about solving particular problems elegantly, or making new features "pay their way" in actual useful functionality.  For them, it's about the technology they champion, not about the best possible solution to what is, after all, a technology-neutral problem.
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Jason "Electrawn" Potkanski
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« Reply #5 on: September 28, 2006, 03:11:24 PM »

Quote
There's a simple and straightforward reason that we must at least launch with MediaWiki, namely, we can't afford anything else in terms either of money or time.  One of the reasons Wikipedia has been a modest success is that good (not perfect) software was written specifically for the task of community encyclopedia building.  As long as we are collaboratively writing encyclopedia articles, we'll probably be using some version of MediaWiki.

Translation: To keep up Citizendium buzz, we need to stick with Mediawiki in the near term.

I would say most of Wikipedia's success is based on "EBay" effect, once you are the dominant mover. Mediawiki was written specifically for the task of community encyclopedia building. Whether it succeeds at that is questionable.

Mediawiki likely won't be thrown out, just evolved.

Quote
I'm all in favor of keeping the system as simple as possible.  If I have anything to do with it, we'll be deleting features, not adding them.  Features get in the way of content, and simplicity reveals content.  And content is king!

With due respect, I believe Mr. Sanger is confusing Usability http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Usability with features (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Features) or capability.

* Software Citizendium uses should be as capabile as possible for reasons of scale, security and anticipated future use. It should not be so overloaded with the kitchen sink (see ICQ) that it affects performance.

* The database backend wikipedia uses, MySQL, is not as capabale as other free open source databases. Just look at recent talk on Wikitech. This needs to be discussed.

* Mediawiki needs a usability overhaul. In current form, is it really the *Best* way to collaboratively edit an encyclopedia? I disagree. As part of the process of setting up citizendium, we will do a usability study on wikipedia.

From http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Usability:

Usability includes considerations such as:

Who are the users, what do they know, and what can they learn?


End users are the entire internet spectrum. They know computer and internet basics.
Editors/Contributors are internet users familiar with web forms and how to use them.
Advanced Editors may have a useful talent but not necessarily computer saavy.

It is the goal that end users and occasional editors can contribute to the system while providing advanced tools and methods for frequent editors and contributors.

What do users want or need to do?

Users need to add, remove, copyedit and format text in a database in real time. Users also need to be able to comment, debate and protect data from malicious entities.

Users also need to authenticate themeselves and data stored in the database.

What is the general background of the users?

Background ranges from minimal computer knowledge to advanced progamming skill.

What is the context in which the user is working?


Users work in realtime via a browser interface updating a databse using a web form.

What has to be left to the machine? What to the user?

Formatting, display is left to the machine. User responsible for most everything else.

Answers to these can be obtained by conducting user and task analysis at the start of the project.

Other considerations include:

Can users easily accomplish their intended tasks? For example, can users accomplish intended tasks at their intended speed?


With Mediawiki alone, No. To combat vandalism for instance, outside software (bots) and methods (IRC) are employed to defend Wikipedia.

Using templates, users must use talk pages to convey discuss problems. This often leads to flame and edit wars rather than specific discussion on a word or text in a paragraph or section. In short, template use is not specific enough for disputes.

How much training do users need?

For occasional editors, training should be very little. As users make more frequent contributions, the system may need to train users on policy, style, community and technical issues.

What documentation or other supporting materials are available to help the user? Can users find the solutions they seek in these materials?

Mediawiki is very poorly documentated. Wikipedia is heaviliy documentated, however, locating such resources is difficult.

What and how many errors do users make when interacting with the product?

Wikipedia has no built in spellcheck facility. While errors are higher than normal or desired, actions are usually correctable except in a few circumstances.

Can the user recover from errors? What do users have to do to recover from errors? Does the product help users recover from errors? For example, does software present comprehensible, informative, non-threatening error messages?

Users can preview pages. Users can make use of minor edits to correct errors. Product generally does not help user recover from errors. Error messages produced by mediawiki are appropriate.

Are there provisions for meeting the special needs of users with disabilities? (accessibility)

Work has been made toward making mediawiki accessible to disabled users.

Quote
Ultimately, with all due respect to programmers, the choice of system should not be left to programmers, who fall in love with particular technologies, and naturally want to do cool stuff, but often they just don't care as much as they should about solving particular problems elegantly, or making new features "pay their way" in actual useful functionality.  For them, it's about the technology they champion, not about the best possible solution to what is, after all, a technology-neutral problem.

There are two ways to run IT departments:

Academic/Business based: These types of environments are run on pure cost basis and on the near term. Focus is heavily on the now with little investment in the future. Such environments are usually seen being run by people with little knowledge of the IT industry. While a significant portion of business and academic entities are run in this manner, such environments are hostile and one step away from disaster.

Engineering based: These types of environments are run on a needs basis with a focus on the long term. Infrastructure is planned for growth and scale. The best environments are run by those who can act as liason between IT and management and deliver both cost and growth needs. These types of cultures in a pure form are a rare breed. Such environments are desired and usually the entitiy maintaining them is wildly successful.

I think Larry is worried about zealotry, that tendency to pursue homogenous (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homogenous) methods to destructive ends. Putting all your eggs in one basket is at worst a potential disaster or at best unintentionally boxing yourself in. Feature creep is Solutions searching for Problems and dangerous when it introduces bugs and performance issues.

To not box ourself in like Wikipedia has done with Mediawiki, PHP and MySQL, we need to pursue modular, easy to use and easy to maintain and update solutions. No one needs network and system admins spinning dinner plates on sticks all day.

-jtp Electrawn



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Nicholas Kaye-Smith
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« Reply #6 on: September 28, 2006, 04:44:42 PM »

Quote
I'm all in favor of keeping the system as simple as possible.  If I have anything to do with it, we'll be deleting features, not adding them.  Features get in the way of content, and simplicity reveals content.  And content is king!

* The database backend wikipedia uses, MySQL, is not as capabale as other free open source databases. Just look at recent talk on Wikitech. This needs to be discussed.
Mediawiki has, I believe "some" support for Postgresql, whatever "some" means.  Huh

* Mediawiki needs a usability overhaul. In current form, is it really the *Best* way to collaboratively edit an encyclopedia? I disagree.
I agree with you Smiley
Quote
As part of the process of setting up citizendium, we will do a usability study on wikipedia.

From http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Usability:

Usability includes considerations such as:

Who are the users, what do they know, and what can they learn?


End users are the entire internet spectrum. They know computer and internet basics.
Editors/Contributors are internet users familiar with web forms and how to use them.
Advanced Editors may have a useful talent but not necessarily computer saavy.

It is the goal that end users and occasional editors can contribute to the system while providing advanced tools and methods for frequent editors and contributors.
WYSIWYG, or rather WYSIWYM can be provided by mediawiki extensions, but they are all experimental ones. See http://www.wikiforge.net/en/index.php?title=Main_Page&action=edit

The syntax can get a daunting for new users once you introduce extensions like Cite.php (adds <ref> tag) and semantic mediawiki, and I don't think WYSIWYM will fix that.

This (daunting syntax) is also a problem with other wikis - the best thing to do is to provide the system the most people are familiar with, although WYSIWYG (available in Twiki and MoinMoin - Perl and Python respectively - makes it easier).
Quote
What do users want or need to do?

Users need to add, remove, copyedit and format text in a database in real time. Users also need to be able to comment, debate and protect data from malicious entities.

Users also need to authenticate themeselves and data stored in the database.

What is the general background of the users?

Background ranges from minimal computer knowledge to advanced progamming skill.

What is the context in which the user is working?


Users work in realtime via a browser interface updating a databse using a web form.

What has to be left to the machine? What to the user?

Formatting, display is left to the machine. User responsible for most everything else.

Answers to these can be obtained by conducting user and task analysis at the start of the project.

Other considerations include:

Can users easily accomplish their intended tasks? For example, can users accomplish intended tasks at their intended speed?


With Mediawiki alone, No. To combat vandalism for instance, outside software (bots) and methods (IRC) are employed to defend Wikipedia.
Yes, there are a lot of tasks that take far to long then they should.
Again, though, this is a problem with most, if not all wikis. Again, I believe mediawiki is superior because more bots and programs (AWB, for instance, although I have never tried it) support it.
Quote
Using templates, users must use talk pages to convey discuss problems. This often leads to flame and edit wars rather than specific discussion on a word or text in a paragraph or section. In short, template use is not specific enough for disputes.
What would be better to discuss problems? Forums?
Quote
How much training do users need?

For occasional editors, training should be very little. As users make more frequent contributions, the system may need to train users on policy, style, community and technical issues.

What documentation or other supporting materials are available to help the user? Can users find the solutions they seek in these materials?

Mediawiki is very poorly documentated. Wikipedia is heaviliy documentated, however, locating such resources is difficult.
Well, that's something we can fix in Citizendium, at least.
Quote
What and how many errors do users make when interacting with the product?

Wikipedia has no built in spellcheck facility. While errors are higher than normal or desired, actions are usually correctable except in a few circumstances.
Browser spellcheck extensions?
Quote
Can the user recover from errors? What do users have to do to recover from errors? Does the product help users recover from errors? For example, does software present comprehensible, informative, non-threatening error messages?

Users can preview pages. Users can make use of minor edits to correct errors. Product generally does not help user recover from errors. Error messages produced by mediawiki are appropriate.
How would you suggest Mediawiki help users recover from errors?
I think Mediawiki's messages are a little harsh (the ones above and below the edit box). One user though he had been mistaken for a vandal because the content above the edit box said "Wikipedia is not an advertising directory" or something similar.
Quote
Are there provisions for meeting the special needs of users with disabilities? (accessibility)

Work has been made toward making mediawiki accessible to disabled users.

To not box ourself in like Wikipedia has done with Mediawiki, PHP and MySQL, we need to pursue modular, easy to use and easy to maintain and update solutions. No one needs network and system admins spinning dinner plates on sticks all day.

I agree, Mediawiki needs some work, but we (Citizendium) should promote in the short term at least the use of outside programs that can work with Mediawiki to reach these goals.
Maybe we could use Google's Firefox referral program to help finance the project and give the users extra capabilities at the same time?
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Jason "Electrawn" Potkanski
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« Reply #7 on: September 28, 2006, 05:24:41 PM »

Quote
Mediawiki has, I believe "some" support for Postgresql, whatever "some" means.  Huh

Should use an abstraction layer like ADODB or Pear or something else. Makes underlying DB choice Moot.

Quote
WYSIWYG, or rather WYSIWYM can be provided by mediawiki extensions, but they are all experimental ones. See http://www.wikiforge.net/en/index.php?title=Main_Page&action=edit

The syntax can get a daunting for new users once you introduce extensions like Cite.php (adds <ref> tag) and semantic mediawiki, and I don't think WYSIWYM will fix that.

This (daunting syntax) is also a problem with other wikis - the best thing to do is to provide the system the most people are familiar with, although WYSIWYG (available in Twiki and MoinMoin - Perl and Python respectively - makes it easier).

If it adds extreme complexity, its Metadata and should be edited via a specially designed interface from the artilce itself. Categories, comments, sematics...all metadata. All the metadata crud doesn't belong in the article for readability and editability.

Quote
Yes, there are a lot of tasks that take far to long then they should.
Again, though, this is a problem with most, if not all wikis. Again, I believe mediawiki is superior because more bots and programs (AWB, for instance, although I have never tried it) support it.

Most of those bot functions and AWB things should be provided by Mediawiki itself and not external tools. AWB and external editing presents problems in itself. Screw up, and 1000s of pages need reverting.

Quote
What would be better to discuss problems? Forums?

I think article talk pages should be depreciated. The commenting system that the FSF uses (via plone I believe) is better suited for collaborative editing. Check out the recent draft of GPLv3 and subsequent comments: http://gplv3.fsf.org/comments/gplv3-draft-2.html . This kind of color coding/commentary is exactly what I have in mind.

Quote
I agree, Mediawiki needs some work, but we (Citizendium) should promote in the short term at least the use of outside programs that can work with Mediawiki to reach these goals.
Maybe we could use Google's Firefox referral program to help finance the project and give the users extra capabilities at the same time?

For obvious reasons, you can see why I want to discourage bandaiding Mediawiki as much as possible. For launch, it will need to be in such form, however, for the overall goals of citizendium, we need to do a serious code overhaul.

As for financial aspects, there is a seperate forum dedicated to that question.

I have looked over the semantic + Mediawiki you installed. Right direction, probably not best implementation.

-Jtp Electrawn

« Last Edit: September 28, 2006, 06:17:33 PM by Jason "Electrawn" Potkanski » Logged
Nicholas Kaye-Smith
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« Reply #8 on: September 28, 2006, 05:36:04 PM »


The FSF's commenting system is excellent, but, from what I've heard, plone does take a lot of system resources. Also, I don't believe this system is suited to longer, more general discussion, so I don't believe talk pages and the like should be deprecated entirely.

What would be a better implementation, in your opinion, of semantic annotations? (Not that I disagree with you, just after your opinion)


« Last Edit: September 28, 2006, 08:47:43 PM by Jason "Electrawn" Potkanski » Logged

Jason "Electrawn" Potkanski
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« Reply #9 on: September 28, 2006, 08:46:54 PM »

Grr. I somehow edited the post instead of replying. Odd.

-jtp

Quote
The FSF's commenting system is excellent, but, from what I've heard, plone does take a lot of system resources. Also, I don't believe this system is suited to longer, more general discussion, so I don't believe talk pages and the like should be deprecated entirely.

Do general discussions belongin/on articles? Or do they belong in other namespaces? Smiley

Quote
What would be a better implementation, in your opinion, of semantic annotations? (Not that I disagree with you, just after your opinion)

I would like to see a seperate textbox devoted to metadata that is turned on by editors. Sort of an "Advanced" Edit box. Semantics could be placed there rather than in the article itself. Less crap for the parser to deal with.

-jtp
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Peter Hitchmough
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« Reply #10 on: September 28, 2006, 11:46:57 PM »

No contest: MediaWiki.

For all kinds of reasons, Citi will have to be launched on based on a core implementation of MediaWiki.

This can and should evolve, in an engineered fashion, along with the end product - we aren't starting with a blank sheet.

-Peter



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Zachary Pruckowski
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Posts: 933


« Reply #11 on: September 30, 2006, 01:25:46 PM »

This is a series of questions, all of which we have to answer:

1)  Which wiki program do we use?
2)  What sort of extensions should we use?
3)  What database should we use?
4)  What extra WP software can we license/port/reimplement?
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Peter Hitchmough
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« Reply #12 on: September 30, 2006, 03:13:28 PM »

Good post.

This is a series of questions, all of which we have to answer:
1)  Which wiki program do we use?
2)  What sort of extensions should we use?
3)  What database should we use?
4)  What extra WP software can we license/port/reimplement?

1) - MediaWiki - a priori requirement based on WP.
2) - That depends entirely on the requirements: functional, technical and non-functional.
3) - That depends on the best fit to the requirements.
4) - What are the requirements: must haves? should haves? don't needs?

I believe that Is the way ahead. Next step = requirement analysis.

-Peter
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Jason "Electrawn" Potkanski
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« Reply #13 on: September 30, 2006, 04:12:19 PM »

I've started a white paper on the temp wiki. @ textop.

Since there are license issues with textop, (currently there are none!). Edits to the white paper assign copyright to myself. I will assign copyright to Sanger and/or future citizendium entities as they become available. Without any structures in place, I have to be a bit draconian regarding copytright but promise to remain fair and reasonable. Essentially I reserve the right to make my viewpoint stick if necessary.  Grin

That said...I have discovered my issues with Mediawiki in a nutshell. From http://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Help:FAQ

Quote
What can't MediaWiki do?

While versatile, MediaWiki isn't suited to all purposes. In particular, users should remember that it is designed to allow open-editing, and doesn't provide very complex per-page access restrictions. Users seeking such functionality ought to consider using software dedicated to that purpose, such as document or content management software!

Citizendium, as proposed, requires complex per-page access restrictions. Perhaps this sheds the best light on why I want to wrap mediawiki inside a CMS (Content Management System) like XOOPs.

To suit Citizendium purposes, we have to take something and design it to a purpose that it wasn't designed for. Discuss.

-jtp
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Nicholas Kaye-Smith
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« Reply #14 on: September 30, 2006, 04:47:00 PM »

Quote
Citizendium, as proposed, requires complex per-page access restrictions. Perhaps this sheds the best light on why I want to wrap mediawiki inside a CMS (Content Management System) like XOOPs.

Can you explain how XOOPS will provide complex per-page access restrictions? I barely use XOOPS at all, but all the mediawiki integrations  I've seen don't really add functionality to mediawiki.
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