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Author Topic: Revising the text in one section of the Neutrality Policy page  (Read 2736 times)
Dan Nessett
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« Reply #30 on: September 06, 2009, 07:38:44 PM »

Joe, I think you propose two mutually exclusive objectives when you write, "I don't think our job should be to write for the enemy.  Rather, I think it ought to be writing all that there is to know about a subject." Writing all there is to know about a subject includes presenting views, theories, etc. that you completely disagree with.
I think there's an important distinction to be drawn between "presenting" and "writing for" a viewpoint (and therefore no self-contradiction in Joe's remark). As I see it, CZ authors' aim should always be the former, never the latter.   

I agree that those writing "top-level" encyclopedia articles should attempt to present all viewpoints. However, the probability that experts on the topic will agree the article is both accurate and comprehensive is vanishingly small. Providing signed articles that do not carry the imprimatur of Citizendium, present a topic from a particular point of view and are subject to vetting for accuracy and other fundamental criteria of CZ (with the exception of neutral point of view) would greatly increase the usefulness of CZ by providing it with significant differentiation over WP and generally increase its value to the general public. CZ should ensure site-wide neutral point of view by soliciting opposing viewpoints to balance signed articles written from one particular perspective. Creating an environment where intellectual balance is maintained through a marketplace of ideas is one way that a democratic open society differs from an autocratic intellectually closed society.
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Russell D. Jones
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« Reply #31 on: September 13, 2009, 01:51:47 PM »

Sorry, for the hiatus, folks, but the U was calling me... And apologies for this being so rambling as I haven't been in the conversation for a while.

There's a couple of themes I read above that I'd like to stress.  First, this is a knowledge-building project and we shouldn't lose sight of that.  I agree with Dan (and others) that the areas on which experts agree is small, thus I'd say we could have more articles but smaller articles.  The power of the wiki tech is easy hyperlinking.  There is no reason why we need long comprehensive articles on huge topics that throw in every conceivable pov which ultimately end up being what experts would consider rubbish.  It's easy to link a lot of little articles to build up a core of knowledge, both pro-and-con.

Personally (and remember I'm out in left field here), I think some are forgetting that knowledge is fundamentally political.  It's not who's right and who's wrong and what we can prove (e.g. "science"); it's how many people we can persuade to believe the way we do.  Even science is fundamentally political in its persuasive structure.  So writing an article is staking out knowledge territory and then defending it.  This is why experts aren't interested in rubbish.  Why help the heretics?

(Also, I will not support disclaimers.  Disclaimers are only for articles with which we do not agree, right?  We don't need disclaimers for articles that our experts verify as truth, right? [unless the lawyers have a say...])

The other problem with the neutrality policy and the whole writing for the enemy analogy, is that while it may work for the sciences (where competing theories are relatively small) it is absolutely unworkable for the social sciences and humanities.  There are hundreds of historians, for instance, who have a theory about the American Civil War.  That is a few hundred POVs that our neutrality policy would require inclusion.  sorry, not going to happen.

Thus the neutrality policy is unworkable for arriving at concrete knowledge.  Consider this example: liberalism (or conservatism).  Liberals, despite what Ann Coulter would have you believe, are not Stalinists, nor are conservatives fascists (Al Franken notwithstanding).  But how can you write an article about liberalism (using our definition of neutrality) while attempting to reconcile it with Coulter?  It is not possible.  There is no golden mean between Coulter and Franken (except that maybe they both love the US).  My answer is that you have multiple articles: "Liberalism" and the "Conservative critique of Liberalism."  Is our article on Euclidean Geometry going to be constantly interrupted by counter arguments from Non-Euclidean Geometry?  Do parallel lines cross or not?  Are liberals traitors or not?  An article that purports knowledge must tell us the truth.  Any answer to these questions are necessarily POV.  Thus, to be neutral the article must tell us that by reading this article the reader won't find the answer. 

Here's some irony: I really don't have much problem with the neutrality policy as written (except the whole "enemy" analogy).  My problems come from how the neutrality policy is practiced.  It seems to be practiced as per my examples.  There seems to be a requirement (in practice) that when writing about X we must also write about not-X.  In practice this really gums up the articles with a lot of baggage that doesn’t belong there.  I want to know about Widgets, but I find in the widget article information about why we think widget theory is flawed.

Basically, I'm advocating a greater granularity of knowledge.  We have X and not-X, and little-x, and pseudo-X, and Y.  That becomes five different neutrally-written articles, not one "neutral" article with five different points of view.  The aim is knowledge.  What is this thing called love?  Let's not cloud up articles with detours about what it is not or that we don't believe that it is.
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Howard C. Berkowitz
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« Reply #32 on: September 13, 2009, 02:18:28 PM »

There's a couple of themes I read above that I'd like to stress.  First, this is a knowledge-building project and we shouldn't lose sight of that.  I agree with Dan (and others) that the areas on which experts agree is small, thus I'd say we could have more articles but smaller articles.  The power of the wiki tech is easy hyperlinking.  There is no reason why we need long comprehensive articles on huge topics that throw in every conceivable pov which ultimately end up being what experts would consider rubbish.  It's easy to link a lot of little articles to build up a core of knowledge, both pro-and-con.
While I certainly don't think any of it is perfect, that's what I tried to do in Wars of Vietnam, Gulf War, Afghanistan War (2001-), and Iraq War. Remember that Vietnam War was a total rewrite, in part because it seemed to be written from an ideological perspective. The articles on Vietnamese Communist grand strategy and War, Vietnam and the United States at least don't try to reconcile the opposing sides. Now, I think I was able to do some justice to the differing Politburo views, but, even there, subarticles exists for the specific ideologues such as Truong Chinh and Ho Chi Minh and Vo Nguyen Giap and Le Duan. There should be on the American side. For the South Vietnamese, it sometimes changed too fast to figure out who was whom--in cleaning up definitions, I succumbed to temptation and defined one group as the junta in 1964 that overthrew the junta of 1963 that was overthrown in 1965.

Again, I tried to start with a relatively small core for extrajudicial detention or interrogation, and then keep drilling down. At those lower levels, there clearly could be forks. Without agreeing with it, I can articulate the Cheney, etc., "one percent doctrine" and the doctrine of unilateral presidential authority, and articulate a critique of it that is specifically that.

For whatever reason, however, the top level articles haven't gotten approved. I thought Wars of Vietnam was fairly close, and somehow the final tweaking stopped. Extrajudicial detention (top level) and interrogation should be straightforward enough. What happened?
This is why experts aren't interested in rubbish.  Why help the heretics?
Matt and I disagree, pleasantly, a lot. He believes there should be debunking of conspiracy theories. I feel it's a losing battle and a waste of expert time.

Now, I am considering an experimental article, tentatively entitled (quotes in title) "They hate us because...", which starts out with a more-or-less offhand comment by George W. Bush and then took on a life of its own, with lots of people using a political phrasing along the lines of "they hate us because we are free" or "they hate us because of who we are."  I can describe a number of people who make such statements, but I'm not sure if I can say they have more than an emotional or political basis--a real and significant one. Osama bin Laden is a more coherent writer than Adolf Hitler, both of whom were pretty specific about what they hated. Bin Laden, incidentally, gave a speech, in 2002, as I remember offhand, directly addressing it: if we hate freedom, why aren't we attacking Sweden, which is often measured (e.g., by Freedom House) as more free than the U.S.?

I can then go on and explain what I believe, as a presumed expert, to be bin Laden's main goals, as well as some objectives that are more operational/psychological.

The other problem with the neutrality policy and the whole writing for the enemy analogy, is that while it may work for the sciences (where competing theories are relatively small) it is absolutely unworkable for the social sciences and humanities. 
Except in many science cases, there may be no strong competition, but a gradual refinement of a majority view. In a number of technology areas, there are accepted coexisting approaches, where the market may decide (think Blu-Ray DVD, or the Betamax).
There are hundreds of historians, for instance, who have a theory about the American Civil War.  That is a few hundred POVs that our neutrality policy would require inclusion.  sorry, not going to happen.
I forget the author, but I have a nice book on Why the Confederacy Lost. Some contemporary historian interviewed George Pickett about Gettysburg, asking if it were Longstreet's lack of enthusiasm or Stuart's wandering off. Pickett, not the brightest bulb in the chandelier but an honest man, responded "I always thought the Yankees had something to do with it."

Hard to argue that one.
Thus the neutrality policy is unworkable for arriving at concrete knowledge.  Consider this example: liberalism (or conservatism).  Liberals, despite what Ann Coulter would have you believe, are not Stalinists, nor are conservatives fascists (Al Franken notwithstanding). 
Look at [[American conservatism]] and sort out the references to liberalism as both an opposite and (e.g.,, Benthamite) defining characteristic. I cry.

Basically, I'm advocating a greater granularity of knowledge.  We have X and not-X, and little-x, and pseudo-X, and Y.  That becomes five different neutrally-written articles, not one "neutral" article with five different points of view.  The aim is knowledge.  What is this thing called love?  Let's not cloud up articles with detours about what it is not or that we don't believe that it is.

I've tried doing this in a number of places, but it hasn't gotten traction. What can I do differently?
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Prime Minister, you can't take the bull by the horns if you're grasping the nettle. I mean, if you grasped the nettle with one hand, you could take the bull by one horn with the other hand, but not by both horns because your hand wouldn't be big enough, and if you took a bull by only one horn it would be rather dangerous because...' (Yes Prime Minister II, pp. 221-2)
Shamira Gelbman
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« Reply #33 on: September 13, 2009, 07:12:06 PM »

The other problem with the neutrality policy and the whole writing for the enemy analogy, is that while it may work for the sciences (where competing theories are relatively small) it is absolutely unworkable for the social sciences and humanities.  There are hundreds of historians, for instance, who have a theory about the American Civil War.  That is a few hundred POVs that our neutrality policy would require inclusion.  sorry, not going to happen.
I disagree with this. At least in the social sciences, we write manageable-length literature reviews that even-handedly and comprehensively summarize theories about hotly contested explananda all the time. Sure, it's harder than simply arguing on behalf of one's own point of view, but it's certainly possible.
Quote
Thus the neutrality policy is unworkable for arriving at concrete knowledge.  Consider this example: liberalism (or conservatism).  Liberals, despite what Ann Coulter would have you believe, are not Stalinists, nor are conservatives fascists (Al Franken notwithstanding).  But how can you write an article about liberalism (using our definition of neutrality) while attempting to reconcile it with Coulter?  It is not possible.  There is no golden mean between Coulter and Franken (except that maybe they both love the US).  My answer is that you have multiple articles: "Liberalism" and the "Conservative critique of Liberalism." 
I don't get why you would have multiple articles rather than one "liberalism" article that includes a section on "the conservative critique of liberalism." I also don't get why an encyclopedia article on liberalism would have to be reconciled with Coulter at all. Neutrality demands that we duly acknowledge Coulter's criticism of liberalism, not that we tailor the explanation of what liberalism is to accommodate her viewpoint. Hopefully needless to say, the same goes for conservatism and Al Franken.
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Howard C. Berkowitz
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« Reply #34 on: September 13, 2009, 07:19:38 PM »

Neutrality demands that we duly acknowledge Coulter's criticism of liberalism, not that we tailor the explanation of what liberalism is to accommodate her viewpoint. Hopefully needless to say, the same goes for conservatism and Al Franken.

Would absolutely equal hysterics be neutral?  Roll Eyes
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Prime Minister, you can't take the bull by the horns if you're grasping the nettle. I mean, if you grasped the nettle with one hand, you could take the bull by one horn with the other hand, but not by both horns because your hand wouldn't be big enough, and if you took a bull by only one horn it would be rather dangerous because...' (Yes Prime Minister II, pp. 221-2)
Hayford Peirce
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« Reply #35 on: September 13, 2009, 08:14:00 PM »

Well, one of them is a United States senator, if memory serves me well, and the other is just a @#$%^&* (here my memory blanks out on me inexplicably) -- I don't think that the two are remotely comparable....
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Joe Quick
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« Reply #36 on: September 14, 2009, 08:47:04 AM »

The other problem with the neutrality policy and the whole writing for the enemy analogy, is that while it may work for the sciences (where competing theories are relatively small) it is absolutely unworkable for the social sciences and humanities.  There are hundreds of historians, for instance, who have a theory about the American Civil War.  That is a few hundred POVs that our neutrality policy would require inclusion.  sorry, not going to happen.
I disagree with this. At least in the social sciences, we write manageable-length literature reviews that even-handedly and comprehensively summarize theories about hotly contested explananda all the time. Sure, it's harder than simply arguing on behalf of one's own point of view, but it's certainly possible.
As Howard will tell you, literature reviews are not standard practice in non-academic fields, but I do think they represent a good example of how we ought to try to approach article writing.  While it's not really that hard to bias a literature review in one direction or another, they're supposed to be more or less holistic and leave the author's position out of it.
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Howard C. Berkowitz
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« Reply #37 on: September 14, 2009, 09:05:53 AM »

Well, one of them is a United States senator, if memory serves me well, and the other is just a @#$%^&* (here my memory blanks out on me inexplicably) -- I don't think that the two are remotely comparable....

One accepts the name of comedian.

One, if with laryngitis and bilateral hand casts, is more esthetically pleasing than the other, at least from some perspectives.

Did I ever mention that in my psychological warfare and intelligence training, I did some academic (and other) work in propaganda analysis? I have been toying with an experimental article or two that does look at the rhetoric at the extremes, which might be relevant to people such as at least one of these. For example, I've been taking the phrase that appears to have started with a more-or-less offhand G.W. Bush remark close to "they hate us because we are free", which has morphed into verifiable sound bites. Osama bin Laden, of all people, responded directly, with, for him, what must have been stand-up comedy: "If we hate you because you are free, why aren't we setting off bombs in Sweden?"

While I don't agree with many of them, bin Laden has a fairly specific manifesto that is far more precise than "we hate you because of who you are." I think a neutral article can be written about the comparisons; the manifesto is already in bin Laden-related articles.
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Prime Minister, you can't take the bull by the horns if you're grasping the nettle. I mean, if you grasped the nettle with one hand, you could take the bull by one horn with the other hand, but not by both horns because your hand wouldn't be big enough, and if you took a bull by only one horn it would be rather dangerous because...' (Yes Prime Minister II, pp. 221-2)
Shamira Gelbman
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« Reply #38 on: September 14, 2009, 09:34:15 AM »

While it's not really that hard to bias a literature review in one direction or another, they're supposed to be more or less holistic and leave the author's position out of it.
Right, and so are encyclopedia articles. I don't remember if I've mentioned it here before, but the Encyclopedia of White Power (limited preview available on Google Books: http://books.google.com/books?id=nNWbbhUYv8oC&dq=encyclopedia+of+white+power) does an admirable job of maintaining neutrality in its coverage of topics that are inherently controversial. Many of its authors are individuals who have a definite opinion about (and often a vested interest in) their subjects, but you wouldn't know it just from reading the encylopedia. IMHO, if they can produce a neutral article about the American Nazi Party, we can do the same for American liberalism.
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Howard C. Berkowitz
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« Reply #39 on: September 14, 2009, 10:27:03 AM »

While it's not really that hard to bias a literature review in one direction or another, they're supposed to be more or less holistic and leave the author's position out of it.
Right, and so are encyclopedia articles. I don't remember if I've mentioned it here before, but the Encyclopedia of White Power (limited preview available on Google Books: http://books.google.com/books?id=nNWbbhUYv8oC&dq=encyclopedia+of+white+power) does an admirable job of maintaining neutrality in its coverage of topics that are inherently controversial. Many of its authors are individuals who have a definite opinion about (and often a vested interest in) their subjects, but you wouldn't know it just from reading the encylopedia. IMHO, if they can produce a neutral article about the American Nazi Party, we can do the same for American liberalism.

Slight digression, but I must share this. I probably could write a decent article on the American Nazi Party, having had some up-close-and-personal experience in the early seventies. As you know, I'm fairly knowledgeable in Nazi doctrine and history, from the "Never Again" standpoint.

For those who know Washington DC, two brownshirted party members were leafletting on the corner of Wisconsin and M. Most people ignored them, or crumpled the leaflets with a curse. I stopped and politely took a leaflet. They smiled.

I very carefully read it, and then turned to them with a Medusa gaze. "You...dare...to...call...yourself...National Socialists? This is the rankest sort of Strasserist deviationism from the line of the Fueher, Adolf Hitler! It is Western-liberal-inspired leftist claptrap for which they were purged!"

They had been called many things, but liberal had not been one of them. They looked at one another in some desperation. Not shouting, but projecting, I began to throw out snippets of the Strassers, Anton Drexler, and assorted other historical references, inventing a few Mein Kampf quotes (well, they were in the spirit) on the spot.

"Obviously, you have not the education in your own ideology to understand." At that point, my German was much more fluent (not very), and I threw out a few phrases to test theirs -- which was nonexistent other than close order drill. "Let me see if you understand anything: Achtung! Links um! Marsch!" They barely understood, but I soon had them crashing into one another with confusing commands." Then,I started yelling: "Stille Nacht! Heilige Nacht!", and so forth. They cringed at Christmas carols.

Now, was that writing for the enemy, better than he could?  Oh, I would have liked to have heard the after-action review...
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Prime Minister, you can't take the bull by the horns if you're grasping the nettle. I mean, if you grasped the nettle with one hand, you could take the bull by one horn with the other hand, but not by both horns because your hand wouldn't be big enough, and if you took a bull by only one horn it would be rather dangerous because...' (Yes Prime Minister II, pp. 221-2)
Peter Schmitt
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« Reply #40 on: September 14, 2009, 06:55:39 PM »

(Reading this discussion at once I will not try to quote statements.)

Many topics can be treated "neutrally", but not all. Perhaps "fair" would be a better term to use?
In many cases conflicting views can be included in one article,
but for some this will not work -- articles should remain readable.
Too many such discussions will make the article unintelligble and much too long.
Moreover, it is not the same to have an article on view A with criticism from view B,
or an article on view B with criticism from view A.

How to present a topic fairly cannot be handled by a general rule.
It depends on the topic.
Sometimes a "fair" survey with "partial" subpages is the best choice,
sometimes not.
 (The partial or non-neutral subpages need not be signed articles, they can be collaborative efforts as well.
Signed articles should probably be reserved for clearly personal essays.)

Even in "unsuspicious" fields like mathematics different views are possible:
The abstract (formalist) view, the physics view, the engineers view.
Even if it is the same mathematics, the language may differ more than a few footnotes can handle.

An encyclopedia is more than a collection of facts. It can and should comment knowledge.
Therefore conspiration theories should be presented as well - and commented, fairly.
But since this is a project based on voluntary contributions it may happen
that first the theory is presented and the commentary is missing, just as there are incomplete articles.
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Matt Innis
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« Reply #41 on: September 14, 2009, 07:03:10 PM »

...
Personally (and remember I'm out in left field here), I think some are forgetting that knowledge is fundamentally political.  It's not who's right and who's wrong and what we can prove (e.g. "science"); it's how many people we can persuade to believe the way we do.  Even science is fundamentally political in its persuasive structure.  So writing an article is staking out knowledge territory and then defending it.  This is why experts aren't interested in rubbish.  Why help the heretics?

Yes, Russell, I agree that this is the elephant in the room.  

Matt and I disagree, pleasantly, a lot. He believes there should be debunking of conspiracy theories. I feel it's a losing battle and a waste of expert time.

Howard calls it debunking, but I call it writing neutrally ;-)  I'm not interested in debunking.  He is right, though, I don't consider it a waste of time for an expert to take the time to explain why a photograph might look like it was doctored when it could just as well have been a matter of lighting.  Didn't you want to know?
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Howard C. Berkowitz
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« Reply #42 on: September 14, 2009, 07:13:52 PM »

...
Personally (and remember I'm out in left field here), I think some are forgetting that knowledge is fundamentally political.  It's not who's right and who's wrong and what we can prove (e.g. "science"); it's how many people we can persuade to believe the way we do.  Even science is fundamentally political in its persuasive structure.  So writing an article is staking out knowledge territory and then defending it.  This is why experts aren't interested in rubbish.  Why help the heretics?

Yes, Russell, I agree that this is the elephant in the room.  

Matt and I disagree, pleasantly, a lot. He believes there should be debunking of conspiracy theories. I feel it's a losing battle and a waste of expert time.

Howard calls it debunking, but I call it writing neutrally ;-)  I'm not interested in debunking.  He is right, though, I don't consider it a waste of time for an expert to take the time to explain why a photograph might look like it was doctored when it could just as well have been a matter of lighting.  Didn't you want to know?

Let's talk about diversity among the elephants.

I certainly don't know how to perform a spinal adjustment by chiropractic means. I could describe how to do it with judo, but I'll have to admit that until I both was thrown and threw sparring partners (and a few enemies for whom I was not writing), I would never have believed that it's really not strength-intensive.

Now, I happen to be a pretty good photographer, with some experience in photographic engineering. Now, when I say that there will be no stars showing in a single exposure of you under a street light, you can take my word for it. You might talke a slightly more complex explanation that the eye handles a much wider brightness range than does photographic film --- although I suspect if I looked from your lit face to the sky, it would take my eye time to adjust to starlight.

To go to the next level, however, and start talking of dynamic range of film, processing techniques to compress or expand it, etc., starts getting nontrivial. I might be talked into writing about contrast management for fine art photography using the Zone System, although that might make me too nostalgic for my lost darkroom. I have very little motivation to go into that level of detail for a conspiracy theorist.

Look at the arguments I got about telemetry, about electro-optical tracking, etc. It was mostly futile.
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http://en.citizendium.org/wiki/User:Howard_C._Berkowitz

Prime Minister, you can't take the bull by the horns if you're grasping the nettle. I mean, if you grasped the nettle with one hand, you could take the bull by one horn with the other hand, but not by both horns because your hand wouldn't be big enough, and if you took a bull by only one horn it would be rather dangerous because...' (Yes Prime Minister II, pp. 221-2)
Matt Innis
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« Reply #43 on: September 14, 2009, 07:19:36 PM »

Look at the arguments I got about telemetry, about electro-optical tracking, etc. It was mostly futile.

It's only futile in a model such as wikipedia, where there is no locked approved version.  I'm not saying it isn't a lot of work. On the contrary, I'm just saying it might be worth everything that is put into it... and, Howard, you can't be the only one that can write about these things.  Others must join in for us to be well rounded and complete.
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