How to mark pages for deletion

[Dan Nessett]

Could you point me to the template definition? I will test it. However, I would be surprised if it works.

I described it by the name I used: Template:Fast_del.

The markup you used is not well-formed:

<includeonly>noinclude>{{speedydelete|{{{1}}}|{{{2}}}}}</noinclude</includeonly><noinclude>

Alternative "speedydelete" template -- test version:
call it as

<nowiki>   <{{subst:fast del|reason|~~~~}}>
</nowiki>
</noinclude>


You probably meant:

<includeonly><noinclude>{{speedydelete|{{{1}}}|{{{2}}}}}</noinclude></includeonly><noinclude>

Alternative "speedydelete" template -- test version:
call it as

<nowiki>   <{{subst:fast del|reason|~~~~}}>
</nowiki>
</noinclude>

I tried this (actually just <includeonly><noinclude> stuff </noinclude></includeonly>) previously.

Processing the template markup you wrote with the ExpandTemplates special page on WP (using no parameters) yields:

Alternative "speedydelete" template -- test version:
call it as

<nowiki>   <{{subst:fast del|reason|~~~~}}>
</nowiki>

The problem is the parser doesn't pass through the <noinclude> stuff </noinclude> to the page that calls the template. It evaluates it before the page calling the template is rendered. So, the result is <includeonly></includeonly> ... The text <noinclude> stuff </noinclude> is not transcluded at all.

If you like, you can play around with alternative template definitions using the ExpandTemplates special page on WP. Just go to:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:ExpandTemplates

and paste the template definition text into Input Text box.

[Peter Schmitt]

The markup you used is not well-formed:

<includeonly>noinclude>{{speedydelete|{{{1}}}|{{{2}}}}}</noinclude</includeonly><noinclude>

Alternative "speedydelete" template -- test version:
call it as

<nowiki>   <{{subst:fast del|reason|~~~~}}>
</nowiki>
</noinclude>

This is _intentionally_ not well-formed.

The missing pair <  > is added by the call, the rest is inserted by "subst:".
Thus the file contains (after saving) the template call between noinclude tags.

[Dan Nessett]

The markup you used is not well-formed:

<includeonly>noinclude>{{speedydelete|{{{1}}}|{{{2}}}}}</noinclude</includeonly><noinclude>

Alternative "speedydelete" template -- test version:
call it as

<nowiki>   <{{subst:fast del|reason|~~~~}}>
</nowiki>
</noinclude>

This is _intentionally_ not well-formed.

The missing pair <  > is added by the call, the rest is inserted by "subst:".
Thus the file contains (after saving) the template call between noinclude tags.

Peter, I think you misunderstand how templates are expanded. When the parser see the text {{some pagename}}, it fetches the text on the page "some pagename", (this is true whether the text is on a Template page or a page in a different namespace). It processes this text until no markup commands remain. It then takes the result and replaces the template call with the processed text.

To show what happens when you call the template Template:Fast del I have copied the text from its definition on CZ into a sandbox I have on WP. (I changed the text "speedydelete" to "dummy", since WP has a speedydelete template and I don't want to delete my Sandbox from WP). My sandbox is named User:Dnessett/Sandboxes/First Sandbox. Go there and click the edit tab to see I have correctly copied it (with the modification I mention). Then go to:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:ExpandTemplates

and enter into the box labeled Input text:

{{User:Dnessett/Sandboxes/First Sandbox|REASON|~~~~}}

Click the button labeled "OK". You will see in the box labeled "Result" that the processed text is not what you expect. The result is ill-formed mediawiki markup text.

[Peter Schmitt]

 To show what happens when you call the template Template:Fast del

You have to call it exactly as I wrote:

           <{{subst:fast del|reason|~~~~}}>

between <...> and using "subst"!  (not as "{{fast del||}}"!)
It works, I have tested it and used it. It is not transcluded recursively because of "subst":
   After saving it the file does no longer contain a call of the template but its expansion,
   and this is hidden between <noinclude>  </noinclude>

[Daniel Mietchen]

 To show what happens when you call the template Template:Fast del

You have to call it exactly as I wrote:

           <{{subst:fast del|reason|~~~~}}>

between <...> and using "subst"!  (not as "{{fast del||}}"!)
It works, I have tested it and used it. It is not transcluded recursively because of "subst":
   After saving it the file does no longer contain a call of the template but its expansion,
   and this is hidden between <noinclude>  </noinclude>

Just gave Peter's solution a shot at http://en.citizendium.org/wiki/An_article_to_test_the_new_speedy_delete_template , and it seems to work - the speedy tag does not appear in http://en.citizendium.org/wiki/User:Daniel_Mietchen/Sandbox#Speedy , even though the content of http://en.citizendium.org/wiki/An_article_to_test_the_new_speedy_delete_template is transcluded there: http://en.citizendium.org/wiki?title=User:Daniel_Mietchen/Sandbox&action=edit&section=3 .

I have thus changed the instructions to list both possibilities. In the long run, I think we should go for just one, though - so let's see which of the two (or possibly a third one) causes less problems over the next two months or so.

[Dan Nessett]

 To show what happens when you call the template Template:Fast del

You have to call it exactly as I wrote:

           <{{subst:fast del|reason|~~~~}}>

between <...> and using "subst"!  (not as "{{fast del||}}"!)
It works, I have tested it and used it. It is not transcluded recursively because of "subst":
   After saving it the file does no longer contain a call of the template but its expansion,
   and this is hidden between <noinclude>  </noinclude>

My mistake. I left off the out-lying "<" and ">".

[Dan Nessett]

 To show what happens when you call the template Template:Fast del

You have to call it exactly as I wrote:

           <{{subst:fast del|reason|~~~~}}>

between <...> and using "subst"!  (not as "{{fast del||}}"!)
It works, I have tested it and used it. It is not transcluded recursively because of "subst":
   After saving it the file does no longer contain a call of the template but its expansion,
   and this is hidden between <noinclude>  </noinclude>

Just gave Peter's solution a shot at http://en.citizendium.org/wiki/An_article_to_test_the_new_speedy_delete_template , and it seems to work - the speedy tag does not appear in http://en.citizendium.org/wiki/User:Daniel_Mietchen/Sandbox#Speedy , even though the content of http://en.citizendium.org/wiki/An_article_to_test_the_new_speedy_delete_template is transcluded there: http://en.citizendium.org/wiki?title=User:Daniel_Mietchen/Sandbox&action=edit&section=3 .

I have thus changed the instructions to list both possibilities. In the long run, I think we should go for just one, though - so let's see which of the two (or possibly a third one) causes less problems over the next two months or so.

I agree. Either putting <noinclude>{{speedydelete|reason|~~~~}}</noinclude> or <{{subst:fast del|reason|~~~~}}> on the page to be deleted works. Of course, this still doesn't meet Joe's goal of writing  "... those tags into the code of the template". But, if it works and everyone is happy with it, that is the main objective.

[Peter Schmitt]

If a whole cluster is to be deleted (e.g., after a move):
Is it feasible to have "delete cluster" template?
Would this be too dangerous?
(It is rather tedious to mark all pages of a cluster, and one might easily forget one.)

[Daniel Mietchen]

If a whole cluster is to be deleted (e.g., after a move):
Is it feasible to have "delete cluster" template?
Would this be too dangerous?
(It is rather tedious to mark all pages of a cluster, and one might easily forget one.)

It is certainly feasible to have a "delete cluster" template, but I wouldn't know how to start with that, as I have no idea which pages and commands are involved in the deletion process.
If anyone with deletion permissions could take some screenshots next time they do it, this might help to design such a system. It is dangerous, though, and we should also think of ways to limit unintended effects of using this feature.

[Peter Schmitt]

It is certainly feasible to have a "delete cluster" template, but I wouldn't know how to start with that, as I have no idea which pages and commands are involved in the deletion process.

The template would not be the problem -- it only needs to look clearly different and be put on the main page.
The vital question is whether the constables have an easy way to list all pages of a cluster,
ideally in form of list where they can check which files are to be deleted.
Then they only had to look on each of the pages (as they have to do anyway)
and decide whether the deletion request is justified.

By the way, such a list would also be helpful when starting to move a cluster to show what files are involved.
(A quick way to check a cluster would be nice independently even though it can be done using advanced search.)

But I suspect that such tools can only be provided by systems administrators.

[Daniel Mietchen]

It is certainly feasible to have a "delete cluster" template, but I wouldn't know how to start with that, as I have no idea which pages and commands are involved in the deletion process.

The template would not be the problem -- it only needs to look clearly different and be put on the main page.
The vital question is whether the constables have an easy way to list all pages of a cluster,
ideally in form of list where they can check which files are to be deleted.
Then they only had to look on each of the pages (as they have to do anyway)
and decide whether the deletion request is justified.

By the way, such a list would also be helpful when starting to move a cluster to show what files are involved.
(A quick way to check a cluster would be nice independently even though it can be done using advanced search.)

But I suspect that such tools can only be provided by systems administrators.

Such a list could be provided in a way similar to how the subpages template keeps track of existing pages.

[Matt Innis]

The vital question is whether the constables have an easy way to list all pages of a cluster,
ideally in form of list where they can check which files are to be deleted.
Then they only had to look on each of the pages (as they have to do anyway)
and decide whether the deletion request is justified.

We don't have a special page that lists anything related to an articles subpages, unfortunately.  We have to delete them one at a time from the speedydelete page, which I am pretty sure you are aware of:

http://en.citizendium.org/wiki/Category:Speedy_Deletion_Requests

Deleting a cluster, at this point, would require an editor's request because there would most likely be content involved. Constables can't just delete articles that have content.  I would think that moving a cluster is more likely.

Chris Day knew more about the subpages template and where the pages would be.

[Peter Schmitt]

Deleting a cluster, at this point, would require an editor's request because there would most likely be content involved. Constables can't just delete articles that have content.  I would think that moving a cluster is more likely.

Moving a cluster usually requires several deletes:
Generally, either all redirects, or all but that for the main page.

Chris Day knew more about the subpages template and where the pages would be.

The subpages template is very involved and seems to depend on a list of all possibilities.
But a cluster may contain some irregular subpages (intentionally or by accident).

The operation system would make it easy to list al pages (as with advanced choice, but more selective).