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Author Topic: The end of CZ?*  (Read 819 times)
'docmartin' (Dr Martin Cohen)
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Posts: 44


« on: August 20, 2009, 10:00:27 AM »

As a newbie to CZ, I scanned first through the explaining parts and then
trough the forums. What I am missing is an explicit statement/declaration of
the function of CZ.

Greetings Citizens!

I was interested to read the discussions on the 'charter (in which I was invited to take a leading role in drafting - thanks!) but I am mindful that Hans question here still needs answering before the Charter serves any useful purpose. Hans asks 'What is the point' of this Citizendium?

This discussion has failed to address that issue, but clearly CZ's founder, Larry, has made the judgement that is lacks any point, by not editing or contributing to it. And,  on this point at least, I agree with him.

As a former editor on the project, I found it lacked sufficient content to be useful. IN my area - philosophy (which nominally is Larry's too) it lacked pages on almost every topic, from Plato and Aristotle to  'philosophy' itself. It was initially hard to me to understand how so little could have been achieved by so many in so much time. But the reasons soon became apparent! Anyway,  at the rate content was being added, this problem was never going to be solved.

Two solutions occured to me:

1. Drastically curtail the areas supposedly covered. Eg. it could have been reduced to overviews of 'controversial topics' in the sciences and social sciences. A similar approach is now being undertaken by myself and Pierre Alain Gouanvic at

http://philosophical-investigations.wikidot.com/

2. A second necessary strategy would have been to 'free-up' the production of articles.

3.  The ability of certain time wasters to interfere and drive off contributors needed to be addressed. Alas, the Time Waster in Chief was also the 'Editor in Chief'!

Even if these [problems had been addressed, though, Hans, CZ would still have lacked a purpose. The net is full of good specialist and general sources on all topics, offering 'digests'. CZ needs/ needed its own style. Being 'neutral' was not such a focus, but merely a philosophical category mistake.

The content that was completed was of mediocre quality, and certainly not worth shouting about, as Citizens are prone to. In fact, the CZ project has driven off or simply 'bored off' most of its potential contributors, let alone readers. We are left with a handful of egotistical bores. I mention no names, but they know who they are.  CZ has no useful reference aspects and is left solely  as a vehicle for egomaniac - could that be Larry's influence - with its foolish titles and elaborate 'procedures'.

So...  although I wish the project well, I suspect (like it seems it founder does) that it has no true function, and no future, and so the time spent contributing to it is really best seen as what it is - writing for the pleasure of writing rather than of being read.

ps.

'end' has two senses, of course. The purpose and the 'finish'.
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Joe Quick
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Posts: 967


« Reply #1 on: August 20, 2009, 12:08:55 PM »

I suppose the most disgruntled are usually the ones to revise history most drastically.  Martin Cohen was banned from Citizendium in January 2009 after repeated exhibitions of irksome and childish behavior.  I very much doubt he has been asked to participate in drafting our charter and I suppose he thought up his justifications for leaving after he found out that he was no longer welcome.

Hans-Josef, the function of Citizendium is quite straightforward: we want to provide the world a free and reliable source of reference material.
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Hayford Peirce
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Posts: 1332



« Reply #2 on: August 20, 2009, 12:23:51 PM »

I very much doubt he has been asked to participate in drafting our charter and I suppose he thought up his justifications for leaving after he found out that he was no longer welcome.

It was with a sense of irony and with tongue firmly in cheek that I said ("threatened" might be a better word) in the Draft Charter thread that I would nominate three of our most troublesome ex-Citizens to be members of the drafting committee....
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JFPerry
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Posts: 40


« Reply #3 on: August 20, 2009, 12:31:20 PM »


As a former editor on the project, I found it lacked sufficient content to be useful. IN my area - philosophy (which nominally is Larry's too) it lacked pages on almost every topic, from Plato and Aristotle to  'philosophy' itself. It was initially hard to me to understand how so little could have been achieved by so many in so much time. But the reasons soon became apparent! Anyway,  at the rate content was being added, this problem was never going to be solved.

Two solutions occured to me:

1. Drastically curtail the areas supposedly covered. Eg. it could have been reduced to overviews of 'controversial topics' in the sciences and social sciences.

Thanks for your input. I believe that you are raising an important issue. Among your proposals:

"1. Drastically curtail the areas supposedly covered . . ."

I have one of those one-volume encyclopedias ("Merriam-Webster's Collegiate Encyclopedia"). It contains somewhat more than 25,000 entries and totals about 3,000,000 words. It is a useful reference in spite of the limitations of the print medium and the one-volume format which restrict not only the number of articles but the amount of information which each article can contain (not to mention the absence of any reference listings).

As of now, CZ has about 12,000 articles and 11,000,000 words. That is a substantial content - by word count, nearly FOUR times that of my one-volume encyclopedia.

The sheer size of CZ at present leads me to conclude that if the article content were all of the "high priority" nature, CZ would right now be a very useful reference. Your statement concerning the lack of pages on significant topics in certain topic areas (you mentioned Philosophy, but I am more familiar with others) is not one I would disagree with, though the situation is improving.

But the solution is not to limit the areas of coverage, but to (somehow) get people to spend significantly more time on the "high priority" topics. There was an attempt to move folks in this direction with the Core Articles Initiative, but it is a bit like herding cats. You can't really tell people that they cannot work on some particular article because it is not significant enough.

As for point #2, please explain what you mean by "free-up the production of articles"? I don't understand your recommendation.

Jim Perry
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'docmartin' (Dr Martin Cohen)
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Posts: 44


« Reply #4 on: August 20, 2009, 12:59:51 PM »

Jim,

a more useful guide is the number of 'finished' articles... which is about 100. There are a few hundred more 'nearly finished'. But 12 thousand? That's why I gave the example from my own area - it is USELESS  as a reference. Try looking something up! It's really a make-believe world -see thingys comments on me above!

I think the penny dropped in the process of my arguing with Larry about this article - much contested by 'loyalists' (really, they are loyal only to their own hierachies and interests, not thing grander let alone the CZ 'ideals') - and that's why the ship is now rudderless as well as foundering. Don't mind all my metaphors!

http://www.timeshighereducation.co.uk/story.asp?sectioncode=26&storycode=406100&c=1

CZ consists of a small number of articles that people have spent a lot of time arguing about.

My 'friendly' advice to the project - if it wants to carry on at all - is to recognise that fact and start rebuilding itself from there.

Having been involved in long wrangles about whether or not Paracelus influenced homeopathy - I don't think there is any evidence that the wrangling even led to good articles.
« Last Edit: August 20, 2009, 01:22:23 PM by 'docmartin' (Dr Martin Cohen) » Logged

Tom Morris
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Posts: 178



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« Reply #5 on: August 28, 2009, 04:26:41 AM »

As for lack of philosophy articles, I hope to get back to writing CZ articles real soon now. I just submitted my MA dissertation. I'm having a few lazy days off - it is August, after all - to catch up with the important task of lounging around watching TV. I'm planning on writing a lot more in philosophy now that I've satisfied my academic commitments.
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