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Author Topic: Convention for names of Asian provinces, or a special case  (Read 4868 times)
Howard C. Berkowitz
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« on: February 15, 2009, 09:29:39 AM »

I note that our Chinese experts will refer to "Yunnan" rather than "Yunnan Province".  Vietnamese practice, however, is to speak commonly of "Tay Ninh Province", perhaps for disambiguation between the province and its capital, which usually has the nearly the same name (e.g., "Tay Ninh City").

With an increasing need to link Vietnam articles to Yunnan, I'd rather have an expert create at least the stub for the province, and let me know whether it is more correct to link to Yunnan or Yunnan Province.

(side chuckle) one of my favorite coffees comes from Yunnan. I never had a bad cup of coffee in Japan. Where did the phrase "all the tea in China" come from?  Cheesy
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Prime Minister, you can't take the bull by the horns if you're grasping the nettle. I mean, if you grasped the nettle with one hand, you could take the bull by one horn with the other hand, but not by both horns because your hand wouldn't be big enough, and if you took a bull by only one horn it would be rather dangerous because...' (Yes Prime Minister II, pp. 221-2)
Bruce M.Tindall
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« Reply #1 on: February 16, 2009, 11:55:42 AM »

I am not an expert, but as a copyeditor who sees a lot of prose written by people who are experts in Chinese nomenclature, I'd say that they usually refer to "Yunnan" plain and simple, except where there is room for ambiguity or confusion.  The authoritative series of books "The Cambridge History of China" also seems to adhere to his practice, as do Britannica articles.  Often, though not always, the word "province" will be added when a smaller subdivision's location is being specified: e.g., "the city of Xiaoshan, in Shaoxing Prefecture, Zhejiang Province."  (Chicago Manual of Style recommends uppercasing the "P" but some publishers lowercase it.)

On the other hand, these people are usually writing for an audience of folks who could reel off the names of all the Chinese provinces in their sleep, and who know that "Yunnan" is a province, not a delicious red-cooked stew of eight different internal bovine organs.  A more general audience might need a little nudge, as American news viewers got recently when coverage of the wildfires repeatedly referred to the Australian "state of Victoria" in the same outlets where domestic news would refer to wildfires in just plain "California."  Still, for the title of the article, I'd think that "Yunnan" would work.

Come to think of it, I've never seen any publisher's style guide that explicitly addresses your question, even among publishers of scholarly journals specializing in China. 

All this applies only to Chinese provinces (and "autonomous regions"); I don't know about other countries.
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Howard C. Berkowitz
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Posts: 1763


« Reply #2 on: February 16, 2009, 12:10:55 PM »

I am not an expert, but as a copyeditor who sees a lot of prose written by people who are experts in Chinese nomenclature, I'd say that they usually refer to "Yunnan" plain and simple, except where there is room for ambiguity or confusion.  The authoritative series of books "The Cambridge History of China" also seems to adhere to his practice, as do Britannica articles.  Often, though not always, the word "province" will be added when a smaller subdivision's location is being specified: e.g., "the city of Xiaoshan, in Shaoxing Prefecture, Zhejiang Province."  (Chicago Manual of Style recommends uppercasing the "P" but some publishers lowercase it.)

On the other hand, these people are usually writing for an audience of folks who could reel off the names of all the Chinese provinces in their sleep, and who know that "Yunnan" is a province, not a delicious red-cooked stew of eight different internal bovine organs.  A more general audience might need a little nudge, as American news viewers got recently when coverage of the wildfires repeatedly referred to the Australian "state of Victoria" in the same outlets where domestic news would refer to wildfires in just plain "California."  Still, for the title of the article, I'd think that "Yunnan" would work.

Come to think of it, I've never seen any publisher's style guide that explicitly addresses your question, even among publishers of scholarly journals specializing in China. 

All this applies only to Chinese provinces (and "autonomous regions"); I don't know about other countries.

LOL...I once was upbraided by an American who said I was patronizing Canada when I called Victoria a "provincial capital".

OK -- from another Asian perspective, would the Vietnamese custom of titling with "Province" be terribly jarring? Otherwise, there can be ambiguity between town and province. 
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Prime Minister, you can't take the bull by the horns if you're grasping the nettle. I mean, if you grasped the nettle with one hand, you could take the bull by one horn with the other hand, but not by both horns because your hand wouldn't be big enough, and if you took a bull by only one horn it would be rather dangerous because...' (Yes Prime Minister II, pp. 221-2)
Bruce M.Tindall
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« Reply #3 on: February 16, 2009, 06:34:36 PM »

OK -- from another Asian perspective, would the Vietnamese custom of titling with "Province" be terribly jarring? Otherwise, there can be ambiguity between town and province. 

I can't answer that one. You've doubtless read tons more scholarship on Vietnam than I have. If there's that much ambiguity, it sounds as if using "Province" for Vietnamese subdivisions makes sense, as even in the U.S. we say "Washington State" or "New York State" because of the ambiguity, but we don't say, e.g., "North Carolina State" (unless we're talking about a basketball team that is going to suffer a major defeat on Wednesday night).

Not that this is a scholarly reference, but I do recall hearing U.S. reporters referring frequently to something that happened in "______ Province" of Vietnam when the war was going on.
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Howard C. Berkowitz
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« Reply #4 on: February 16, 2009, 06:57:00 PM »

OK, so I'll refer to Yunnan, not Yunnan Province, in the Vietnam articles,  but refer to Tay Ninh Province (as opposed to Tay Ninh City) in the Vietnamese context.

There are a lot of references to Yunnan, so I either wanted to create a stub, or just whether I should redlink to Yunnan or Yunnan Province. Sounds like the former is best.
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Prime Minister, you can't take the bull by the horns if you're grasping the nettle. I mean, if you grasped the nettle with one hand, you could take the bull by one horn with the other hand, but not by both horns because your hand wouldn't be big enough, and if you took a bull by only one horn it would be rather dangerous because...' (Yes Prime Minister II, pp. 221-2)
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