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Author Topic: Editorial Council Resolution 0011: Stylesheets  (Read 3713 times)
Martin Baldwin-Edwards
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« on: June 17, 2008, 09:51:39 AM »

The period for open comments will start from Tuesday, 17 June 2008 and will end 24 June, 2008

The text of the resolution can be found at http://en.citizendium.org/wiki/CZ:Editorial_Council_Resolution_0011
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David E. Volk
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« Reply #1 on: June 17, 2008, 10:23:15 AM »

 I would like to address a few concerns raised by the private comments:   
-   
- 1) '''lead editor''' is not any kind of power position. By this term I meant lead editor for the first draft on the style guide, nothing more. He would not have power to overrule others, but is rather the first volunteer for his workgroup. The Chemistry style guide was basically written like this:   
- :a) I wrote a first rough draft   
- :b) I sent email to active chemistry group participants and asked for more input   
- :c) We edited the guide   
- :d) Others have continued to add material as they see fit, without my involvement or consent.   
-   
- 2) The style guide is mostly for reminding people of things not to forget and pointing out where to find things.   
- Style of prose is not something that will generally be included in the style guides. This material is covered   
- by CZ-wide policy already and often ignored anyway.   
-   
-   
- 3) The style guide's main purpose is to be helpful to authors and editors, not to ruin their writing experience   
- or drive them away.   
   
- 4) The style guide will be a living, growing thing, edited by both authors and editors of the workgroup   
- : At one point not so long ago, CZ did not use subpages, now it does.   
- When I first got here, we did not have chem_infobox or elem_infobox, now we do. A style guide for authors helps   
- to point out these new things as they arrive. [[User:David E. Volk|David E. Volk]] 09:13, 17 June 2008 (CDT)
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Hayford Peirce
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« Reply #2 on: June 17, 2008, 10:26:35 AM »

Hi David,

Could you go to your Forum "Profile" tab and click on the stuff at the bottom so that your user-page identity and link show up on the bottom of your messages here?

Thanks,

Hayford
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Christian Kleineidam
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« Reply #3 on: June 17, 2008, 04:24:03 PM »

Quote
The style guide will be a living, growing thing, edited by both authors and editors of the workgroup
I think you should specify that in the resolution.
It's a good think when everyone know what kind of authority he has.
It's similar with the issue of articles which are in multiple workgroups.

If we transfer authority to those style sheets by through a resolution, we should specify what kind of authority we give out.
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Larry Sanger
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« Reply #4 on: June 17, 2008, 08:01:07 PM »

I would like to address a few concerns raised by the private comments:   
-   
- 1) '''lead editor''' is not any kind of power position. By this term I meant lead editor for the first draft on the style guide, nothing more.

Then, to avoid confusing people by the name--"lead editor" will be understood by most people that the person takes the lead in the workgroup generally, regardless of what you say it means--you should give a different to the position.  Perhaps it could be "Lead Pedant," Tongue or, more seriously, "Lead Format Editor," or something like that.

Similarly, since you say that the rules this person will shepherd will not in fact be "style of prose," you ought to clarify the proposal by giving the rules some other name than "Style Guide."  "Style," especially as used in "Style Guide," for most readers (who are not all scientists and technical people, remember), means "writing style."  You could use "format," or perhaps some other such word.

This latter clarification does not actually quite solve the second problem I raised, though.  Some Lead Format Editors (or whatever) might, flushed with their awesome power, Grin actually decide to rewrite general rules that are contained in, for example, [[CZ:Article Mechanics]], [[CZ:Naming Conventions]], or even (heavens forfend) [[CZ:Neutrality Policy]].  If we cannot quote any policy to them that says they may not do this, we will be at an impasse, especially if the Lead Whatevers are, as certain History Editors with this authority might prove to be, really stubborn cusses.

As to the rest, I think those clarifications would be very useful to put some of them in the resolution itself.

There is another issue I just thought of that you ought to consider.  It sounds like an awful lot of work to find Lead Whatevers for the various workgroups.  How--not in general, but in tedious specifics--will they be found and confirmed?  This is the sort of thing I have to deal with on a daily basis.  Surely you aren't expecting me to do it?  Cheesy  What I would expect to happen is that there will be one or two persons--maybe one--who volunteer for this position anytime in the next few months (in all workgroups).  I'm sure that's all right.  But then we need to make it clear to workgroups without Lead Whatevers that they can (through whatever the process is) add a new Lead Whatever, as well.

But let me tell you what I really think--if I were trying to solve the problem you're trying to solve.  Instead of establishing a new position, what the resolution should do is establish a category of pages and some (very general) guidelines for just anyone to edit the pages.  That way, we do not have the bottleneck of a recalcitrant Lead Whatever, or the lack of a Lead Whatever.  Instead, we solve your problem in a bottom-up fashion.  Experience dictates that in a project like this, such an approach is much more likely to succeed.
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David E. Volk
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« Reply #5 on: June 19, 2008, 08:32:33 AM »

I never intended to create a new position much less a power position.   The point of the resolution is to form (format/style/how to) guides to aid people in workgroups with items specific to their workgroup. Such guides would be subject to, and not override, all other rules pages at CZ such a neutrality policy and so forth.

 "First Volunteer" or "Workgroup styleguide driver" might be more acceptable names.  I clearly see  Shocked that
we will need to ammend the resolution in some way to clear up these matters and ease fears concerning tyrannical dictators in the
"Lead Editor" role.

I am more interested in getting the guides up and running to help newbies than I am interested in the actual procedure we take to get there.  Therefore, we might ask if this should even be a resolution.  Should we just ask for volunteers in a general sense or target specific heavy contributors to write the first draft? Undecided

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Hayford Peirce
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« Reply #6 on: June 19, 2008, 09:21:24 AM »

Hi David,

I repeat:

Could you go to your Forum "Profile" tab and click on the stuff at the bottom so that your user-page identity and link show up on the bottom of your messages here?

This is a courtesy to the other members, so that we know who we are dealing with, and it is also a requirement for members who use these Forums.

Thanks,

Hayford
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David E. Volk
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« Reply #7 on: June 19, 2008, 12:13:24 PM »

Is this what you were after regarding home page (Huh) or is there more?
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Hayford Peirce
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« Reply #8 on: June 19, 2008, 12:28:29 PM »

Yup. I'm sorry -- did I miss your ID on the previous message? I didn't see it but could have overlooked it. If so, my sincere apologies!
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Martin Baldwin-Edwards
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« Reply #9 on: June 19, 2008, 12:53:38 PM »

No, it wasn't there Hayford: the signature appears on all previous postings too, once it's enabled.

Really, there should be a link at the top of the main page saying "Rules" and an instruction requiring people to read them before using the Forum.
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Christian Kleineidam
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« Reply #10 on: June 19, 2008, 03:33:38 PM »

Quote
Really, there should be a link at the top of the main page saying "Rules" and an instruction requiring people to read them before using the Forum.
Most people expect forum rules to be the same everywhere, so they don't read the rules even when tolled to do so.
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Hayford Peirce
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« Reply #11 on: June 19, 2008, 04:35:27 PM »

Most people expect forum rules to be the same everywhere, so they don't read the rules even when tolled to do so.

They do? Where, for example? I, myself, to my (perhaps mistaken) knowledge, have never before participated in a forum like this....

And just because, let us say, that the Teeny Boppers All-Hip-Hop All the Time Forum doesn't have rules, does that mean that CZ shouldn't either?

Let us recall that CZ already has a pretty dramatic rule compared to other Web sites: that your correct name be used and disclosed in order to be a member. You've already observed that rule, as has everyone else. So why not rules for the Forum?
« Last Edit: June 19, 2008, 06:04:32 PM by Hayford Peirce » Logged

David E. Volk
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David Volk at Stingaree


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« Reply #12 on: June 20, 2008, 02:00:01 PM »

It seems odd to me that when you first go the forums, the initial setup isn't automatically set with the correct options.
I first assumed that my name shown in big letters on the top left would be a link to my CZ home page, but see that it is not.
The real questiion is why isn't it?
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Hayford Peirce
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« Reply #13 on: June 20, 2008, 03:25:29 PM »

You know, I asked myself that same question about a year ago, when *I* first joined. Then I forgot about it. But it's *still* an excellent question!
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Milton Beychok
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« Reply #14 on: June 20, 2008, 09:41:59 PM »

It is going to be very difficult to find a lead stylesheet driver/formatter/whatever in each work group. I cannot speak for all of the workgroups but in the engineering, chemistry and physics workgroups (with which I am familiar), there are currently only about 4-5 really active particpants in total for the 3 workgroups. Although each of the three workgroups has many more registered users, most of them have never participated or done much more than create their user page. Most of them have very, very  impressive bios but seem not to have the time or the inclination to participate.

This may be off-topic, but would it be possible to send a "form" e-mail to all registrants and gently ask them to start participating?

Milt Beychok
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