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Author Topic: Moving Forward on Obscenity  (Read 8624 times)
Hayford Peirce
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« Reply #30 on: March 23, 2008, 09:38:04 AM »

I've just looked at the history list for WP's pornography article, and everyone there is anonymous. Actually, this could be a problem for any future articles concerning similar topics: no-one wants their name associated with them.

Years ago, at WP, I added a semi-scholarly contribution to the first paragraph concerning the supposed derivation of the word pornography itself. A few *real* scholars eventually joined the discussion and a fairly well-authenticated and referenced version of what I had written was the result. As I recall, however, I was the only contributor to the entire article who ever used his real name. So, I suppose, I'm the old cliche, the exception that proves the rule.

As to who should write sex-related articles, just saying a "biologist" sure restricts the field. After all, "sex-related" covers an enormous area! Do we want a biologist writing about "Fanny Hill," say, or "The Kama Sutra", or "The Perfumed Garden of Whoever It Is", or Hugh Hefner, or, well, you name it.... I don't think we should make hard and fast rules about who writes anything -- but we can certainly have hard and fast rules about which workgroup certain articles fall within, and then the usual rules about who edits them would apply. But even here: does "Fanny Hill" fall within Literature, Sexuality, Trashy Fiction, Sociology, or what?
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Brian P Long
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« Reply #31 on: March 24, 2008, 05:31:28 AM »

Brian, would you be willing to draft something (maybe on a subpage of your userspace) that we could all look at?  I think it would be easier to discuss/debate something that is already formulated than to philosophize without a clear idea of what, exactly, other people are referring to.

Joe, here is at least a rough draft of what I am thinking. Let me know if you have any comments or questions.

Policy reformulation:
The Citizendium community does not tolerate content with needlessly explicit language or images.

(I am not married to this formulation; if anyone has a better idea, please let me know. The above is linked to a page with the text below, and I want to emphasize that the specific content proposals below are merely my suggestions that I think are in line with our general principles and, importantly, the reading level of our articles-- i.e., our offensive content policy should not be written (as our current one seems to be) on the assumption that there are going to be elementary or even middle school students reading unadulterated Citizendium articles)

New Policy Page-

In including potentially offensive material in Citizendium articles, it is always prudent to proceed cautiously. If you suspect that material you want to include in a Citizendium article is too explicit, don't barge ahead and put it in without asking for editorial say-so. Citizendium contributors are encouraged to be bold in almost everything, but being cautious about the amount of explicit content on our site will help us reach the largest number of readers.

The inclusion of explicit material is a matter for editorial oversight, and only approved articles are permitted to have explicit material. Subject-area editors will have the final say on whether explicit material merits inclusion in the approved article.

In the case of explicit language, authors should place the text they would have in the main article in context on the talk page (with asterisks?-- BL). The procedure for images is basically the same, but to guard against unapproved offensive images being accessible from Citizendium, authors are kindly requested to keep such images off-site until they are to be placed in an approved article.

(Subjecting explicit content subject to editorial oversight will help assure the educational community that we are trying to be responsible. And until we get more editors, it will also have the effect that almost no explicit material makes its way to the main namespace of the site)

More seriously, putting explicit material in articles without editorial approval will be considered an act of vandalism.

Specific Content Areas

* Explicit or profane language. Citizendium's articles should be written professionally and article text should not include explicit or profane language. There are a small number of cases, however, where explicit or profane language is acceptable in an article in the context of a quotation or the discussion of a term, word or phrase. Inclusion of such material in an approved article is subject to editorial approval, and contributors are requested to draft two versions of their article: one on the main page (with the offensive language omitted) and one on the talk page (with the offensive language in context). This is in order to make life easier for our editors: when approving the article, the editor can decide whether the explicit language is necessary for a full and fair treatment of the subject at hand, and then simply pick one of the already-written texts as the approved text of the article.

* Images with explicit sexual content. Articles discussing human sexuality do not need to be illustrated by photographs. Art History articles with sexual content may be justified, but there needs to be a compelling reason for having such images on-site. As with language, no sexually explicit images should ever be placed in unapproved articles, and proposed images should be linked from the talk page-- not uploaded to the site.

* Images with graphic violence. Generally speaking, there is little justification for graphically violent or gory images on Citizendium. Murder, genocide and other atrocities are sufficiently awful when described verbally, and there is not a strong need to have pictures on-site. There are reasons for article illustrations to be horrifying, but they should not be graphically violent. However, authors who feel they have exceptions to this guideline are encouraged to follow the above process, and take it up with their editors on the talk pages.



Issues I have not addressed:
I have not spelled out just what language (what precise words) is subject to editorial control. Should we assume that our authors will censor themselves in egregious cases?
The other side of the issue is that if we were try to legislate just what words are permitted,   permitting 'bitch' and 'ass' (e.g.), as does American broadcast television, we might be opening the door for some genuinely offensive material which is not technically in violation of our guidelines.

What are we to do about subjects where it is virtually impossible to treat a topic without using potentially offensive language?
I am thinking of gangsta rap, and the host of articles that could be legitimately written about profane topics (individual curse words, profanity in the US and UK, and so on).

Much the same issue is involved in trying to figure out just how many articles we should have on human sexuality, and just which topics we should cover. Are there articles we should exclude from Citizendium, up front?

One idea would be to stipulate that when dealing with potentially offensive subjects, the creation of specialized articles should lag behind broader ones. I.e., we should create an article on 'Hip hop' before we start in on 'gangsta rap.'

Thanks,
Brian
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Brian P Long
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« Reply #32 on: April 17, 2008, 04:16:11 PM »

Hey all--

I'm sorry to revive a half-dead topic, and I assure everyone I will be writing a formal proposal in the next little while-- so this is not all idle chatter.

When we were discussing this before, I have to confess that I was disappointed in the feedback I received about the technical side of the issue. I think it's pretty clear that if we're trying to make Citizendium accessible to K-12 students, we need to have a clear picture of internet filtering by schools and libraries. To get a better idea of the technical parameters, I set up a meeting with an acquaintance who is the Director of Technology at a large, relatively affluent central Ohio school district. Despite sickness and conspiring events, we finally got together the other day and had a good discussion.

In the United States, every school district (and public library) is required by federal law to filter the internet. The central legislation is the Children's Internet Protection Act (CIPA), which was enacted in late 2000. It makes very specific recommendations about what content is to be restricted, and school districts and libraries can lose (federal, I assume) funding if they are found to be in non-compliance with it. Despite this, in my understanding, the implementation of has lagged to some extent, and some school districts are only now beginning to fully implement the law.

School districts use high-powered, enterprise filtering equipment, as opposed to that used by end users (NetNanny, e.g.). As I understand it, Bess was formerly the most frequently used internet filtering program, but has some problems and has now been mostly supplanted by 8e6, released by xstop. Filtering by 8e6 is entirely by review.

Beyond this, school districts have some latitude to white- and black-list specific sites, and this can also be done on a temporary basis-- i.e., if a high school health class is doing a project on human sexuality, the students can be allowed access to some sites for a brief period of time. And at least at the school district in question, there is a review process for filtered sites, if students, librarians or teachers feel that a site with legitimate educational value should be un-blocked. And as anyone who's dealt with school districts knows, higher-level administrators and the school board are also liable to swoop down like Valkyries and intercede if something comes to their attention.

One of the points of this discussion also echoed what I was told by school librarians-- that what particular content parents find questionable is very, very community-dependent. In more liberal districts, parents may even lobby for the inclusion of content parents elsewhere find abhorrent. This just underlines that it will be very difficult to come to any consensus, even within North America, on just what content is and is not family-friendly, or appropriate for readers of a given age. (This isn't to say that Citizendium as a whole cannot be family-friendly, of course-- i.e. helpful, rather than antagonistic, to families and parents)

Happily, my acquaintance was actually very optimistic that we will be able to set Citizendium up so that schools and libraries are able to filter content they don't want to allow access to. We could make a category (similar to the 'History Workgroup' at the bottom of History pages) and put all of the pages with profanity (e.g.) into it (or, following the Common Sense guidelines, we can "rate" it by age group). Furthermore, assuming that we manage to write some, my acquaintance made it sound as though it would be completely trivial for a middle school to restrict access to 'Student Level' pages (assuming they have their own namespace).

I think it's pretty clear that as Citizendium gets bigger, we will want to write 'A Guide to Citizendium for Parents and Educators.' Furthermore, a clear desideratum would be a guide for tech people-- the actual users of 8e6 and Bess-- giving detailed instructions about how to configure those products to allow students access to most Citizendium content and restricting access to other parts. (The less work we make for the tech folk out there, the better.)

Let me know if y'all have any questions or corrections.

Thanks,
Brian Long
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J. Noel Chiappa
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« Reply #33 on: April 17, 2008, 05:06:19 PM »

I'm sorry to revive a half-dead topic

No problem.

Quote
When we were discussing this before, I have to confess that I was disappointed in the feedback I received about the technical side of the issue.

I wouldn't have that negative an assessment; I think a lot of people understood your points, and were supportive.

Quote
Filtering by 8e6 is entirely by review.

Well, that's a good start. Hopefully they will be sympathetic to our goals, of trying to create a quality, reliable reference.

Quote
it will be very difficult to come to any consensus, even within North America, on just what content is and is not family-friendly, or appropriate for readers of a given age.

Understood. How does 8e6 deal with this issue? I would guess that they tag pages with some attributes, and then individual school districts can select the subsets they like?

Quote
We could make a category ... and put all of the pages with profanity (e.g.) into it

The specific technical mechanism might be best deferred for the moment? For example, we might want to add XHTML tags, or something.

Quote
to 'Student Level' pages (assuming they have their own namespace).

This is the only point I am unquiet about. My sense is that the vast majority of pages on CZ will have no "student level" version, because the page content is so easily accessible to anyone that it doesn't need one. (See, for instance [[Naval guns]], to use one example out of a vast number.) So if only "student level" pages are allowed through the filter, this will more than decimate our content.

Quote
(The less work we make for the tech folk out there, the better.)

Hence my comment about "specific technical mechanism might be best deferred"; we'd want to communicate with people who are expert in those systems to find out what would be easiest/best for them.

Noel
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Larry Sanger
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« Reply #34 on: April 23, 2008, 02:44:59 PM »

This whole thing could and should have been moved by Brian to the Proposals system; that's what it's for.
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Brian P Long
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« Reply #35 on: April 23, 2008, 03:08:54 PM »

This whole thing could and should have been moved by Brian to the Proposals system; that's what it's for.

I'm getting there, I'm getting there...
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J. Noel Chiappa
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« Reply #36 on: April 23, 2008, 03:28:45 PM »

I'm getting there, I'm getting there...

Ahah! I move that we adopt this as the official CZ motto.... :-) ROTFLMAO!

Noel
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Joe Quick
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« Reply #37 on: April 23, 2008, 04:17:57 PM »

I'm getting there, I'm getting there...

Ahah! I move that we adopt this as the official CZ motto.... :-) ROTFLMAO!

Noel


You'll need to make that into a proposal.  Grin
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Aleta Curry
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« Reply #38 on: April 23, 2008, 05:31:49 PM »

Seconded!   Grin
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J. Noel Chiappa
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« Reply #39 on: April 23, 2008, 09:07:09 PM »


You'll need to make that into a proposal.  Grin

Sure. Excuse me a moment while I add to to my long - and getting longer every day :-( - ToDo list... :-)

Noel
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Robert_W_King
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« Reply #40 on: April 24, 2008, 11:12:35 AM »

I'm getting there, I'm getting there...

Ahah! I move that we adopt this as the official CZ motto.... :-) ROTFLMAO!

Noel


You'll need to make that into a proposal.  Grin

On a quasi-serious note, you know something is afoul when we start making meta-jokes about our own processes.
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Brian P Long
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« Reply #41 on: April 25, 2008, 08:36:49 PM »

This whole thing could and should have been moved by Brian to the Proposals system; that's what it's for.

I'm getting there, I'm getting there...

Got there-- finally!
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Brian P Long
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« Reply #42 on: May 08, 2008, 04:50:15 PM »

Hello all--

So everyone is completely clear, this is now a complete proposal-- or will be after Jitse gives me the nod, I think. It lives at CZ:Proposals/Should we reform our family-friendly policy?.

In addition to fleshing out the proposal, I have checked out a number of the leading products for filtering the internet. I have also been corresponding with folks at NetNanny and 8e6 about how we might best proceed if we wanted to change our family-friendly policy.

They have confirmed that profanity will not be a problem. As I understand it, "dynamic analysis" has become the industry standard, and will block pages with profanity if that is how the filter is configured.

Another thing that has become apparent is that there already are a number of ways to categorize content so that it can be caught by internet filtering software. If we implement one of these, the filtering products should have no difficulty filtering out objectionable content.

At this point that I sit down in the road and ask for help. There are at least three content tagging systems: PICS, ICRA and Safesurf. In the next little while I would like to flesh out the implementation section of the proposal, but I would not mind having some help in evaluating which of these tagging systems would fit best with our set-up.

Safesurf is at http://www.safesurf.com/classify/ . PICS is at http://www.w3.org/PICS/ , and ICRA is at http://www.fosi.org/icra/ .

Thanks,
Brian Long
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