Citizendium Forums
November 24, 2009, 10:41:23 AM *
Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.
Did you miss your activation email?

Login with username, password and session length
News: POSTING RULES FOR MAIN CZ BOARDS: (1) The CZ Forums are Citizens-only (a "Citizen" is a Citizendium member). Non-Citizens may use only the "Non-member discussion" and "General help" boards, but still must register before posting (it's easy!). Non-Citizen posts elsewhere will be summarily deleted. (2) All must now use their own real names. To edit your displayed name, click on Profile > Account Related Settings. (3) Citizens must now link to their CZ user pages. To edit your signature, click on Profile > Forum Profile Information.
Click here to return to the wiki
 
   Home   Help Search Login Register  
Pages: 1 [2] 3
  Print  
Author Topic: Moving Forward on Obscenity  (Read 8629 times)
Brian P Long
Forum Communicator
***
Posts: 149


WWW
« Reply #15 on: March 21, 2008, 02:50:17 PM »

So all sites aren't necessarily about the software, they're about what the mucky-mucks decide on what is appropriate or not and that is not something we can change.

I hate to be strident, but I anticipated what you're saying in my earlier post. (I would also appreciate a little more detail on just how sites are filtered-- is this at the level of individual pages, or at the domain-name level? Don't filtering programs have white lists?)

We have to draw a line in the sand somewhere, and I would rather have it be a sensible line. I know a number of "mucky-mucks" (by which I mean tech people in schools), and they're just people-- people who are ultimately responsible to teachers and school librarians. We can't change the minds of folks out there, but we can provide good content, and hope people will come around.

-Brian
Logged

Robert_W_King
Forum Regular
****
Posts: 607


WWW
« Reply #16 on: March 21, 2008, 02:52:10 PM »

When I mean mucky-mucks, I mean top level people, not average joes.
Logged

http://en.citizendium.org/wiki/User:Robert_W_King

All current posts beyond May 8th are typed in short form (mistakes) or with my good hand (sans mistakes).
Brian P Long
Forum Communicator
***
Posts: 149


WWW
« Reply #17 on: March 21, 2008, 03:22:37 PM »

When I mean mucky-mucks, I mean top level people, not average joes.

I'm going to ignore the implication that the only people I could possibly know are the low-level tech peons...

These are public school districts we're talking about here, Robert-- it's not some shadowy cabal. They're just people, no matter at what level of the hierarchy they're at.

I mean, worst case scenario, some of us actually get out there and talk to these people and find out what their concerns are, and then we make our decisions accordingly.

To reiterate what I've said earlier, it may be the case that we do get banned in some school districts based on our content decisions. That would be too bad, but I would rank writing the best encyclopedia we can as a higher priority than trying to mediate between the demands of every school district everywhere.
Logged

RJensen
Forum Communicator
***
Posts: 191


« Reply #18 on: March 21, 2008, 07:17:33 PM »

In recent years I have been a consultant to rural school districts in South Carolina, North Dakota, and California (and a subsurban district in Oklahoma). I give 2-week workshops to their history teachers, usually grades 6-11 and show teachers how to search the WWW.   

All of the districts I have been to have centralized computer controls that affect the classrooms computers and library computers.  They subscribe to nanny services that provide a list of naughty sites and block them. I agree a little profanity is unlikely to get on a naughty-list, but the issue here is not profanity it's obscenity, and the nanny-programs promise to block obscenity.

So we are talking about tens of millions of student users in the USA.
Logged

Brian P Long
Forum Communicator
***
Posts: 149


WWW
« Reply #19 on: March 21, 2008, 09:49:25 PM »

In recent years I have been a consultant to rural school districts in South Carolina, North Dakota, and California (and a subsurban district in Oklahoma). I give 2-week workshops to their history teachers, usually grades 6-11 and show teachers how to search the WWW.   

All of the districts I have been to have centralized computer controls that affect the classrooms computers and library computers.  They subscribe to nanny services that provide a list of naughty sites and block them. I agree a little profanity is unlikely to get on a naughty-list, but the issue here is not profanity it's obscenity, and the nanny-programs promise to block obscenity.

So we are talking about tens of millions of student users in the USA.

I think there is a terminological miscommunication here. I am emphatically not advocating what one might call the 'Wikipedia model'-- i.e., a large number of articles with explicit sexuality and language. I think that this is what you are referring to as "obscenity."

I am suggesting that there are a class of articles, small in number and primarily about literature, where profane language may be apposite in our treatment of a subject.

(It is worth noting that we do already have two articles in the main namespace with the word 'fuck.' If profanity is going to get us banned by NetNanny, we probably are already.)

It has also occurred to me that there might be a similar rationale (on the basis of fair treatment of the subject matter) for Art History articles with potentially offensive material. With Art History, I have to plead ignorance-- I just don't know enough about what might or mightn't merit inclusion in Citizendium.

I am not trying to deny that there will come a point when whoever is writing our articles on human sexuality will have to make some difficult decisions about what material merits inclusion, and what should be left out. Those will doubtless be difficult decisions, but again, I believe we should defer to the experts as best we can.

Here is a further refinement of what one might glibly call my pro-profanity proposal, which is justified by the necessity for caution in these matters. I suggest that if someone is writing an article on 'Roman invective poetry,' or 'Martial,' or 'Aristophanes,' or any topic, and feels that there is a compelling reason for including profanity in a quotation in their article (as far as I can see, the only place profanity in an article is justified), they should not barge ahead and put it on the main page. They should copy the relevant section of the article's text, insert the quotation, and put it on the talk page. When the article is being worked up for approval, the editor(s) will make a final determination whether the profanity is absolutely necessary for the article to be fair and complete, and insert it (or not) in the article.

I would further suggest that including profanity in the main namespace of the wiki without editorial say-so should be a serious offense, and, as with any other offense, may lead to banning if repeated. The risk for abuse is too great if we allow unchecked profanity.

I also realize that this discussion may seem like so much shadow-boxing. As far as I know, we don't have authors writing on topics with potentially offensive language at the moment, but we're also adding articles and authors at a pretty ridiculous rate. We should rationalize our obscenity policy, and to my mind, the sooner the better.

-Brian

edit: fixed typo
Logged

Hayford Peirce
Administrator
Forum Regular
****
Posts: 1332



« Reply #20 on: March 21, 2008, 10:18:52 PM »

we're also adding articles and authors at a pretty ridiculous rate. We should rationalize our obscenity policy, and to my mind, the sooner the better.

A ridiculously slow rate! I hardly think we are about to be overwhelmed by a deluge of classical erotica or Indian love manuals. Or am I missing something important here about the rate of article creation? Aside from the egregious Christian Liam, no one seems to have had any interest in even remotely creating the sort of articles that have you so worried. When someone suddenly inserts a long, explicitly descriptive article about The Golden Ass of Apuleius, for instance, I'll start to take your concerns a little more seriously.
Logged

Brian P Long
Forum Communicator
***
Posts: 149


WWW
« Reply #21 on: March 21, 2008, 11:35:06 PM »

The main issue for me, Hayford, is that we have a poorly thought out and incoherent obscenity policy, and that even still, every author and editor on Citizendium is expected to sign on to it. If we were to change the wording from "family friendly" to something less obviously problematic, and were to work up a page spelling out our reasoning in more detail, I would be mostly happy with that.

Beyond that, though, I feel that there is a tendency on Citizendium to attempt to anticipate problems and solve them early on. Offensive content is a hot topic on Citizendium-- the forum topic of that name has 20 pages of discussion and something like 22,000 pageviews. Despite this, we have very little in the way of concrete obscenity policy.

I simply thought that what we've written and said to date merited a hard look, and I think that there is a lot to be said for a policy that spells out specifically what will and will not be acceptable before problems arise. To a limited extent, I also wanted to re-open debate on the subject.

Maybe I was hyperbolic about article and author growth, but when I started working actively on Citizendium, you could pretty easily see the Recent Changes from a couple of days on one page. The February Write-a-thon was pretty successful, but the March one was really booming! (I would be curious how many edits there actually were, if anyone knows)

-Brian
Logged

Robert_W_King
Forum Regular
****
Posts: 607


WWW
« Reply #22 on: March 22, 2008, 06:09:31 AM »

I question the grounds on which you are championing this cause.
Logged

http://en.citizendium.org/wiki/User:Robert_W_King

All current posts beyond May 8th are typed in short form (mistakes) or with my good hand (sans mistakes).
Denis Cavanagh
Forum Communicator
***
Posts: 194


« Reply #23 on: March 22, 2008, 06:50:44 AM »

What grounds do you think is he championing his cause? Are you smelling conspiracy or are you just going to throw about vague, slightly threatening questions around?
Logged

Denis Cavanagh

I'm likely to give my two cents...

Whether I know anything about the subject or not!
Todd Coles
New Arrival
*
Posts: 33


« Reply #24 on: March 22, 2008, 10:06:41 AM »

What grounds do you think is he championing his cause? Are you smelling conspiracy or are you just going to throw about vague, slightly threatening questions around?


I have to agree here.  Brian is obviously trying to start a policy dialogue here on something that, although it might not be at this moment, will become a bigger and more prominent issue.  There is absolutely no call for these not so thinly veiled accusations as to his motives.  This seems to violate our policy of http://en.citizendium.org/wiki/CZ:Professionalism
Logged

Todd Coles
New Arrival
*
Posts: 33


« Reply #25 on: March 22, 2008, 10:10:24 AM »

Brian, I'd like to point out that with the renewed "bold moves" push, it might be worthwhile to you to attempt to define what you'd like to see out of the obscenity policy and have it discussed somewhere where it will get more eye traffic.. through the proposal system or on the relevant talk page for the policy.
Logged

Joe Quick
Forum Regular
****
Posts: 967


« Reply #26 on: March 22, 2008, 11:30:12 AM »

I'd say that, on the whole, I think Brian is moving in the right direction on this.

Brian, would you be willing to draft something (maybe on a subpage of your userspace) that we could all look at?  I think it would be easier to discuss/debate something that is already formulated than to philosophize without a clear idea of what, exactly, other people are referring to.
Logged

Brian P Long
Forum Communicator
***
Posts: 149


WWW
« Reply #27 on: March 22, 2008, 11:44:53 AM »

Brian, would you be willing to draft something (maybe on a subpage of your userspace) that we could all look at?  I think it would be easier to discuss/debate something that is already formulated than to philosophize without a clear idea of what, exactly, other people are referring to.

Sure. I will get a draft up in the next couple of days so that folks will have an idea just what, precisely, my idea of a new obscenity policy would look like.

-Brian
Logged

John Stephenson
Forum Participant
**
Posts: 96


WWW
« Reply #28 on: March 23, 2008, 03:57:19 AM »

I agree that 'family-friendly' has political overtones. I've been leaning towards arguing to scrap it altogether because the definition depends on who you are: some people would consider biology articles concerning reproduction to be unsuitable for children.

I also think that a useful side-effect of our non-anonymous contributor policy has been to limit the amount of smut and rude words on Citizendium. I've just looked at the history list for WP's pornography article, and everyone there is anonymous. Actually, this could be a problem for any future articles concerning similar topics: no-one wants their name associated with them.

The non-anonymous rule I think is quite effective in ensuring we don't become a portal for 'dirty words' and 'filth'. I suppose we could have one of those pages up before controversial articles requiring the reader to confirm that they're over a certain age, or a tag, though it would be have little effect on what people want to see.
Logged

Denis Cavanagh
Forum Communicator
***
Posts: 194


« Reply #29 on: March 23, 2008, 06:04:50 AM »

I think for sex related articles, we're going to let an actual biologist write them. With real names policies in place, no-one wants to be involved in a cock up of that magnitude (Pardon the pun  Wink)
Logged

Denis Cavanagh

I'm likely to give my two cents...

Whether I know anything about the subject or not!
Pages: 1 [2] 3
  Print  
 
Jump to:  

Powered by MySQL Powered by PHP Powered by SMF 1.1.7 | SMF © 2006-2008, Simple Machines LLC Valid XHTML 1.0! Valid CSS!