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Author Topic: Topic Informant questions -- don't know what category they fall into  (Read 6819 times)
Hayford Peirce
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« on: March 08, 2008, 06:57:38 PM »

At Larry's request, I recently wrote a Topic Informant article with some information about my dealings with the late science-fiction writer Robert A. Heinlein.  My article, or page, or whatever you want to call it, can be found here:

http://en.citizendium.org/wiki/TI:Hayford_Peirce/Heinlein

As far as I know, this is the only TI article I have ever seen. There may well be dozens of them, but I simply haven't run across them.

I guess my main question is this: should this article be referenced or linked in some way from the actual Robert A. Heinlein article itself? I realize that the TI is supposed to, in principle, give other CZ authors and editors additional, perhaps controversial, information about a certain topic that they can then decide should either be included in that article or not. But if this is the case, shouldn't there be a link to it that the general public can use to get to it easily? As it stands right now, you've gotta be playing pretty Inside Baseball at CZ in order to know that this TI even exists, let alone know where to find it. I wonder, even, if we shouldn't have a tab at the top of every article to indicate TIs, the same way we have Bibliography, External Links, etc.

Let's say that someone started an article about another well-known S.F. writer, Robert Silverberg, who is still alive and living in the Oakland Hills. I used to be friendly with Bob, and I know a number of people who know him also.  If any of these other people joined CZ, it might be that *all* of them could contribute to a TI about Bob.  Or even, for that matter, Bob himself.  If this were indeed the case, I would think many people accessing CZ would be interested in seeing this raw material....

Remark, I'm not trying to aggrandize myself here -- I'm just curious about this TI business and how it's supposed to function....
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Robert_W_King
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« Reply #1 on: March 08, 2008, 07:40:10 PM »

Let's put it in a subpage!
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Martin Baldwin-Edwards
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« Reply #2 on: March 08, 2008, 08:44:38 PM »

Yes, we are still not using subpages enough. This is an ideal example of where one can be utilised.
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Derek Harkness
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« Reply #3 on: March 09, 2008, 03:56:26 AM »

I think Topic Informant as a concept preceded subpages. If we were doing it now, then a subpage would be to route we would choose I am sure.
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J. Noel Chiappa
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« Reply #4 on: March 09, 2008, 06:59:02 AM »

should this article be referenced or linked in some way from the actual Robert A. Heinlein article itself? ... shouldn't there be a link to it that the general public can use to get to it easily? .. if we shouldn't have a tab at the top of every article to indicate TIs, the same way we have Bibliography, External Links, etc.

Well, I wish every article had a ==Sources== section (not sure where it would go) which lists the sources the article draw on. (This isn't quite the same thing as a Bibliography, because to me a Bibliography would list other relevant works, including ones which weren't consulted to prepare an article.) If we had such a section, one would include a TI link in that section.

Logically, the list of sources should go wherever the References are (i.e. sourcing info for specific statements in the article), because the latter would normally refer (in a short form) to the former (which would give the full publisher, etc information). Specific statements which originate in a TI can reference that TI (if it's felt that a specific ref is needed - I'm not sure what our policy on sourcing is, I don't think we need to be as anal as Wikipedia, I would say just all direct quotes, and potentially controversial statements).

If we don't have a Sources section, we could always list TI links on the Bibliography tab (under a special section, I think) or in Related Articles (again, in a defined separate section).

I'm leaning against a separate TI tab because we don't want to have too many tabs, and the TI would seem to logically fall into one of the other tabs we already have.

Noel
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Hayford Peirce
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« Reply #5 on: March 09, 2008, 09:36:26 AM »

I think Topic Informant as a concept preceded subpages. If we were doing it now, then a subpage would be to route we would choose I am sure.

I'm pretty sure that Larry brought up TI not long after I joined in May of 2007; and that subpages came along later.

How about this as a suggestion:

TI tabs are NOT default tabs like the others. BUT a TI tab can EASILY be added by *anyone*, to any article, once he/she has created a TI that deals with that specific article. Ie, on the Heinlein page there would be a TI tab. There would NOT be a TI tab on, let's say, the Science Fiction page. If there were an article called "The Moon Is a Harsh Mistress", there would be a TI tab there, because the whole point to this specific TI is what RAH though of the book.
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Martin Baldwin-Edwards
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« Reply #6 on: March 09, 2008, 10:15:42 AM »

You can add subpages to any article, and this is not confined to the preselected choices. Certainly, one global option we might consider is SOURCES, but it would be important to distinguish this from Bibliography. As things stand, I think most people consider Sources to be a subset of Bibliography, so Bibliography would have to be renamed to Extended Reading, or something....
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Hayford Peirce
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« Reply #7 on: March 09, 2008, 11:14:26 AM »

A.) How does someone like me add a subpage?

B.) Is a subpage always identified, and gotten to, by a tab at the top?

C.) Yes, the "Sources" has been confusing to me. I know that I myself have been lax/sloppy in using it. In some articles about tennis and/or cooking, I know that I've put == Reference(s) == at the bottom of the page, then, maybe == Sources ==, and then used them interchangeably, plus, of course, also either moving or duplicating some of this info in the various tabs at the top....

Is a puzzlement, at least to my undisciplined mind....
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Hayford Peirce
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« Reply #8 on: March 09, 2008, 11:27:41 AM »

In my last post, I asked how a dummy like me adds a subpage, by which I meant a NEW TYPE, not one of the existing ones, which, I have discovered, lurk in the background, waiting to be inserted.

I also found http://en.citizendium.org/wiki/CZ:Subpage_Pilot, which, of course, tells me far more than I want to know about the subject.

Back to the old drawing board....
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Martin Baldwin-Edwards
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« Reply #9 on: March 09, 2008, 01:27:29 PM »

Actually, Hayford, I think we have all been fairly vague about how we identify sources on CZ articles. Mostly the debate has been about inline referencing versus Harvard referencing; probably we should set up some standard system. I don't know if it is possible to link numbered notes to items in a subpage called Sources, or if it would be better to link from the numbered notes at the bottom to the subpage... There are other options as well, including Harvard style. My preference is to stick with numbered notes, to avoid cluttering the text.

Any techie comments on choices here?

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Aleta Curry
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« Reply #10 on: March 10, 2008, 03:09:11 PM »

Just for the record, TI definitely preceded subpages.

The Topic Informant thing is one more CZ bit where I have only the fuzziest idea of what it is, and really no clue as to how it works.

I don't mind, actually--except that Hayford, if you ever do figure out how to add a *new* subpage, do let the rest of us know.  I kinda thought one had to go to Chris Day for that.
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J. Noel Chiappa
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« Reply #11 on: March 10, 2008, 05:19:53 PM »

if you ever do figure out how to add a *new* subpage, do let the rest of us know.  I kinda thought one had to go to Chris Day for that.

For the mechanics, yes. (One has to edit the {{subpages}} template, which is a) incredibly hairy, and b) locked from editing except by sysops.)

But as far as getting it approved, there is an as-yet-nonexistent approval process one has to go through. (I looked in this for my suggestion to have a "Quotations" subpage for use in biographies.)

Sigh, can we have everything done before everything else (to paraphrase one of the Deep Purple band members)? Prioritization time....

Noel
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Chris Day
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« Reply #12 on: March 11, 2008, 01:52:49 AM »

I don't mind, actually--except that Hayford, if you ever do figure out how to add a *new* subpage, do let the rest of us know.  I kinda thought one had to go to Chris Day for that.

Technically I can add them but not officially. This page might be of interest. 
http://en.citizendium.org/wiki/Template:Subpage_list_2

It is the template that defines the subpage types available and whether they are default of optional.  In theory this list is limitless.

As far as getting a new subpage type initiated the instructions are at:
http://en.citizendium.org/wiki/CZ:Subpages#How_to_add_subpage_types
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Matt Innis
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« Reply #13 on: March 11, 2008, 09:08:03 AM »

I just found this thread.  Yes, the TI workgroup is not up and running as yet. 

Hayford, as Larry is a TI on his  his article, I placed a wikilink at the top or the talk page with a note for everyone to take a look before editing. 

I do like the subpage idea.  That will bring it closer to the article page and give better exposure to the TI perspective.  I like it.
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J. Noel Chiappa
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« Reply #14 on: March 11, 2008, 12:16:55 PM »

I don't know if it is possible to link numbered notes to items in a subpage called Sources, or if it would be better to link from the numbered notes at the bottom to the subpage... My preference is to stick with numbered notes, to avoid cluttering the text.
Any techie comments on choices here?

I agree that auto-numbered notes which get accumulated and displayed elsewhere are the way to go, and ideally, they'd be on a separate sub-page. I have investigated at some length (i.e. enough to cause my brain to threaten to liquify and run out my ears, but not enough to actually get something up and running) as to whether that is feasible to to achieve, technically.

The short, non-technical, answer is that we probably can't do it with the MediaWiki <ref> system, but that we probably could adapt the older {{ref}} system (written using templates, and used on Wikipedia before <ref> was written) to put notes on a subpage.

The long, technical, answer (warning: prepare for brain liquifaction!) is that <ref> probably won't work because it basically only works on a single page. In response, I had the clever idea of wrapping citations in a template that, depending on whether a parameter ("showrefs") was defined or not, supressed the normal page text, i.e. the other text on the page, and then transcluding the entire article page in the Notes subpage.  In other words. for the article page, the article text was shown, and <ref>s were processed normally (to produce the nice little auto-numbered superscripts). On the 'notes' subpage, when the article page was transcluded, with the "showrefs" parameter defined, the article text would be suppressed, and only the <ref>s processed; the <references/> tag, inserted at the bottom of the notes sub-page, would then print them out as usual. Alas, I couldn't find a way to suppress the main text! My first thought was to wrap the <refs>, for the "showrefs" case, in paired "-->" and "<--", (note reverse order), and start the transclusion with "<!--", etc, thereby suppressing the text. I also tried using <onlyinclude></onlyinclude> around the refs in the "showrefs" case. Alas, I couldn't make either of these work, because the markup that was supposed to suppress the article text was always being interpreted at the wrong point in the template evaluation. And later, reading up, I found this bug, which, oddly enough, didn't seem to have bitten me (perhaps because my <refs> weren't included directly, but in an argument). Perhaps someone who's more familiar with MediaWiki hackery can figure out a way to make this basic concept work; if so, hooray!

Anyway, I had a very quick look at the old footnote system, and I think we can probably make it do basically what we want. In addition, using that would have the nice feature that the clickable [1] etc links would go to the right place (the Notes subpage), which they wouldn't have with the <ref> hack (above). It does have some disadvantages (which is why it's been superseded by <ref> on Wikipedia); see "Disadvantages and future improvements" at the bottom of the page.

If people want to try this, I'm willing to import the ref/note templates and hack them to use a "Notes" subpage - but it may be a certain amount of work, so please only ask if we're serious.

Noel
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