Proposal of CZ:Proposals

[Robert_W_King]

[ADMIN NOTE: I merged material from Double structures (mailing list for workgroups and a forum) into this thread.  It's the first time I have done this and see now they merge by timestamp, but it should still be followable.]

Copied straight from the wiki page:

This is a proposed page where general proposals can be made by the community-at-large under various topics.

The justification for having this page is that all serious policy proposals would be able to have a central location on-wiki that everyone could see, monitor, and make comments on.

Additionally, this page will be a feeding point for those proposals to make it up the various ladders for adjudication. It is not recommended that actual policy is to be established in ad-hoc style or by de facto on this page--rather, it facilitates the ability to make proposals and represent community evaluations.

This will provide a better scope for members, as not everyone is involved in the forums, as well as are recipients of dispatches from the various mailing lists.


http://en.citizendium.org/wiki/CZ:Proposals

[Stephen Ewen]

How about a new Forum, right here, "Policy Proposals", where things are much better designed for discussion?

[Robert_W_King]

Because not everyone pays attention to the forum, but we can assume that everyone pays attention to the wiki.

[Aleta Curry]

Compromise--put a notice of it on the Main Page with a link to the proper page at the forums.

I agree with Robert that not all active CZers are active in the forums, but the problem with such pages on the wiki is that they get "lost", the discussion invariably ends up all over the place, etc. etc.

[Robert_W_King]

Compromise--put a notice of it on the Main Page with a link to the proper page at the forums.

I agree with Robert that not all active CZers are active in the forums, but the problem with such pages on the wiki is that they get "lost", the discussion invariably ends up all over the place, etc. etc.

Maybe that's a part of the problem then; we should decide on whether or not to make all information redundant all over the place, or do away with one communication type all together!  In any case, you will get people who want forums, some who want it all on wiki, and some who want it email, it's a pure nightmare. 

In that respect we should probably create it in a place where it will have the most traffic, which I suspect is on-wiki.

[Stephen Ewen]

We have mailing lists galore, forums, wiki pages, skype calls going on, and people who have had to hop and skip all around to follow things, but many more who have not, and more who refuse to, and for every one person who has complained about it you bet there are nine others who have not.  So yes, it would perhaps be best to pull the plugs on everything except the wiki and use mailing lists for only announcements. 

[Christian Kleineidam]

Having both at the same time might become confusing. I think having only one of them would make the structures of CZ clearer and make it easier to follow a discussion because it doesn't happen at two places at the same time.

[Jitse Niesen]

So yes, it would perhaps be best to pull the plugs on everything except the wiki and use mailing lists for only announcements. 

It's not a bad idea. I would like it if I didn't have to check the forums anymore.

[Alexander Wiebel]

So yes, it would perhaps be best to pull the plugs on everything except the wiki and use mailing lists for only announcements. 

It's not a bad idea. I would like it if I didn't have to check the forums anymore.

I agree.

How about a new Forum, right here, "Policy Proposals", where things are much better designed for discussion?

Is there a possibility to improve the "design for discussion" of some special wiki pages?

Having the discussion in the wiki would allow me to exclusively use my watchlist for tracking changes.

[Martin Baldwin-Edwards]

Is this a proposal for democratic suicide? Surely, the only reason your suicide discussion is on the Forum is that this is what people read! If people were interested in discussions on the wiki, you would have put this discussion there. Therefore, the proposal is itself internally contradictory.

[Robert_W_King]

Is this a proposal for democratic suicide? Surely, the only reason your suicide discussion is on the Forum is that this is what people read! If people were interested in discussions on the wiki, you would have put this discussion there. Therefore, the proposal is itself internally contradictory.

The problem is I had to post it everywhere possible in order to create the paradox that would involve the most amount of people, HOPEFULLY with the understanding of what I am trying to getting across--that things of this nature should be in one place, on the wiki. 

Thought it may not have been executed cleanly, that much I now realize.

[Derek Harkness]

It actually makes sense to have both but only if you change the setup so that the same information is relayed on each. New threads on the forum should be automatically sent to the maillist. Likewise replies on the mail list should be added into the forum. That way you can choose the medium that suites you but not miss anything.

However, this is all quite academic as nobody seems to use either the maillists or the forums for workgoup stuff. Instead most workgroup level discussion seems to happen on the workgroups talk pages in the wiki itself.

[Larry Sanger]

So yes, it would perhaps be best to pull the plugs on everything except the wiki and use mailing lists for only announcements. 

It's not a bad idea. I would like it if I didn't have to check the forums anymore.

I'm actually leaning this way myself.  We need to find ways to consolidate discussion; that might be a sensible solution.

(As much as I dislike wikis as a talk tool.)

[Stephen Ewen]

Of course, wikis as a talk tool could be greatly improved upon.

[Christian Kleineidam]

Is this a proposal for democratic suicide? Surely, the only reason your suicide discussion is on the Forum is that this is what people read! If people were interested in discussions on the wiki, you would have put this discussion there. Therefore, the proposal is itself internally contradictory.

In general I would also accept to shut down the mailing list and keep the forum.

I also don't think that having more places to post something increases participation. The paradox of choice could let people thinking:"I don't know whether to post this on the maillist or the forum, so I don't post it at all."
Having structures that are unnecessary also makes it more difficult for a new user to understand the structures.

However, this is all quite academic as nobody seems to use either the maillists or the forums for workgoup stuff. Instead most workgroup level discussion seems to happen on the workgroups talk pages in the wiki itself.

Cutting away not used structures is very practical.
It makes it easier for a new user to find out what structures are actually used.