Internationalisation -- Part Deux...trois...qua...whatever we're up to

[Aleta Curry]

Well, folks, I know we've raised the issue before, but now that we're a little more stable, I venture to bring it up again, as it seems to me we're missing an opportunity here.

What I propose is the establishment of an experimental international CZ--a 'sandbox'--pace to those who really hate the term.

I'm suggesting a sandbox because we don't yet have enough native speakers at the editorship level or with the CZ track record to ensure the quality of CZ in whatever language(s).  HOWEVER, judging from the internationalisation threads here and the CZ:International page, it's evident that what we *do* have are some very enthusiastic folks who don't feel comfortable in English; we're missing out on their expertise, and that's why I see it as a lost opportunity.

It looks to me as though French is a good place to start; we seem to have more native French speakers and confident non-native supporters than anything else (on the other hand, the Germans are LOUD  )

Should we try Citizendium en francais?  Or Citizendium International with a mixed bag?

Can we get moving on this?  I see no harm if it's hidden from public view for the time being.

[Martin Baldwin-Edwards]

If we go for a French CZ, we should try recruitiing native speakers at the moment of starting it. Canada, France, Belgium and bits of Africa etc are the targets.

[Denis Cavanagh]

French or Spanish should be the targets, since large proportions of the world speak these languages. A Chinese wiki is also an option - I take it citizendium isn't banned from China like Wikipedia?

[Aleta Curry]

One would think, except that we don't have large numbers of Spanish speakers at the moment.

[Eddie Ortiz Nieves]

I think we should start the Internationali(z/s)ation as soon as possible. We have volunteers willing to begin the process and it's about time the rest of the world got access to reliable, free information.

I think that we should start with a Romance language (preferably Spanish, since it is the second most spoken language in the world), since there are about 700 million native speakers worldwide.

I believe that a Spanish CZ would greatly benefit the Hispanic world. At least in Puerto Rico, where I reside, a lot of people are always complaining about the unreliability of the Spanish Wikipedia. Their concerns are valid; many, if not most, of the articles there are partially or completely unreferenced. Another problem the Spanish WP has is lack of competent people willing to help out. Many Spanish-speaking Wikimedia users, such as myself, refuse to contribute to the Spanish WP because of the concern aforementioned, but would be glad to use their knowledge of their language to help free knowledge.

For these reasons, I support the creation of pilot CZ projects in other languages, and would be glad to help start up a Spanish CZ.

P.S.

One would think, except that we don't have large numbers of Spanish speakers at the moment.

1.) Translating English to Spanish is very easy. 2.) Many of the Spanish-language Wikimedia projects are run by only a couple of people; not a lot of users would be required to make a Spanish CZ.

[Aleta Curry]

Well, Eddie (I hope I may call you "Eddie"?) I have to agree with you.  Actually, I don't think you'll get many disagreeing with you.  The reason I had originally placed this in "intiatitives" is because I was hoping that we could actually start an initiative, as opposed to yet another of our well-meaning discussions.

You have raised an interesting point:  do we want our international-language CZs do contain original writing or merely translations of the English CZ?

As to the CZ en Espanol being maintained by two or three--well, yes, if those two or three have superlative written language skills.  Merely having competent speakers isn't enough, as I think we would be ridiculed if foreign language CZ versions were inferior to the English ones.  What do you think?

[Eddie Ortiz Nieves]

I hope I may call you "Eddie"?

Of course 

You have raised an interesting point:  do we want our international-language CZs do contain original writing or merely translations of the English CZ?

I think we should translate in the beginning and then start writing our own content as we evolve. For example, we could first translate pages like "Biology" and then write articles on topics relating to where the language is spoken (for example: In a Spanish CZ, topics related to Latin America) on our own.

As to the CZ en Espanol being maintained by two or three--well, yes, if those two or three have superlative written language skills.  Merely having competent speakers isn't enough, as I think we would be ridiculed if foreign language CZ versions were inferior to the English ones. 

I agree.

[Robert_W_King]

Something that hasn't been considered is how we will manage to communicate our policies and foundations in another language and have it mean "the same", at least both culturally and factually.  I think it would be very naive and insulting to expect that somehow those will make the exact same transition (which are clearly focused for the english speaking majority of the world).

Really, this is a complex issue; more than just "starting in another language."

[Joe Quick]

I hope I may call you "Eddie"?

Of course 

You have raised an interesting point:  do we want our international-language CZs do contain original writing or merely translations of the English CZ?

I think we should translate in the beginning and then start writing our own content as we evolve. For example, we could first translate pages like "Biology" and then write articles on topics relating to where the language is spoken (for example: In a Spanish CZ, topics related to Latin America) on our own.

As to the CZ en Espanol being maintained by two or three--well, yes, if those two or three have superlative written language skills.  Merely having competent speakers isn't enough, as I think we would be ridiculed if foreign language CZ versions were inferior to the English ones. 

I agree.

I'm linked into a few different networks of Latin American scholars (and others who study Lat. Am.).  I'm sure that I could recruit some very competent writers, but for the most part, these are people who are going to want to see something already chugging along before they will join up - many of them make their livings as public intellectuals and don't have much time to write more on the side unless it is clearly going to be worthwhile for everyone involved.

If you build it, I'll bet I can get them to come, but I don't want to bother people until we can be sure that they will have a really good first impression.

By the way, Eddie, what have you heard about the new archaeological site that was just uncovered in Puerto Rico?  They're calling it "a new window into the Taino culture," but I haven't been able to find much information.

[Joe Quick]

Something that hasn't been considered is how we will manage to communicate our policies and foundations in another language and have it mean "the same", at least both culturally and factually.  I think it would be very naive and insulting to expect that somehow those will make the exact same transition (which are clearly focused for the english speaking majority of the world).

Really, this is a complex issue; more than just "starting in another language."

Well, you have a point, but if we start with European languages, it won't be a big issue.  Obviously many of those languages span many cultures, but the languages themselves encourage the same basic expressions and our founding principles are very much rooted in European/North American thought.

[Robert_W_King]

Something that hasn't been considered is how we will manage to communicate our policies and foundations in another language and have it mean "the same", at least both culturally and factually.  I think it would be very naive and insulting to expect that somehow those will make the exact same transition (which are clearly focused for the english speaking majority of the world).

Really, this is a complex issue; more than just "starting in another language."

Well, you have a point, but if we start with European languages, it won't be a big issue.  Obviously many of those languages span many cultures, but the languages themselves encourage the same basic expressions and our founding principles are very much rooted in European/North American thought.

That's not always the case for historical records.  For example, I'm sure that in places where the United States was involved, there are two dissenting world views on what the outcome was (this is particularly true when referencing the "founding fathers")

[Denis Cavanagh]

I think a private pilot project mightn't be unreasonable. Allow some native Spanish speakers here to spearhead it, and see what its like after two months and at which stage we can re-evaluate our situation.

Another point which nobody mentioned is this; Would a Spanish CZ be under the same rule as the EC here? Would Larry still be the go to guy, even if he doesn't speak the same language? All interesting questions we will have to look at at some stage.

[Joe Quick]

Something that hasn't been considered is how we will manage to communicate our policies and foundations in another language and have it mean "the same", at least both culturally and factually.  I think it would be very naive and insulting to expect that somehow those will make the exact same transition (which are clearly focused for the english speaking majority of the world).

Really, this is a complex issue; more than just "starting in another language."

Well, you have a point, but if we start with European languages, it won't be a big issue.  Obviously many of those languages span many cultures, but the languages themselves encourage the same basic expressions and our founding principles are very much rooted in European/North American thought.

That's not always the case for historical records.  For example, I'm sure that in places where the United States was involved, there are two dissenting world views on what the outcome was (this is particularly true when referencing the "founding fathers")

Hmm.  Maybe I misunderstood what you were getting at.  Different languages certainly do encourage different modes of thought (though some scholars will deny that they do so very much).  Do we have an article on linguistic determinism?  See the bio for Whorf to get the very basics.  This arises from grammar as well as vocabulary and aspect (that's a linguistics term; see the Wikipedia article for an introduction).  Good translators (we have an excellent one in the community already, though he's been inactive and I'm not sure if he generally does English to Spanish) know this and don't try to translate everything verbatim - often, they are interpreting rather than strictly translating. 

We'll need to be sure that our policies tienen sentido (literally, "have sense" but we would say "make sense") in other languages, but the underlying philosophy that informs them has a strong history throughout the west.  As far as dissenting or opposing world views on a topic, these should be expressed as fully as possible in all versions of Citizendium articles, regardless of language.  Just because someone said something in a language other than the one you're using to write an article doesn't mean you shouldn't or can't give it the full expression it deserves.

Another point which nobody mentioned is this; Would a Spanish CZ be under the same rule as the EC here? Would Larry still be the go to guy, even if he doesn't speak the same language? All interesting questions we will have to look at at some stage.

This is a more pressing concern.  I think that, while the project is in a private pilot mode, it makes sense to get it started under the direction of the current governance.  But it will need native (or at the very least, fluent) speakers to fill in the roles of Editor in Chief and members of the EC before it can launch publicly.  These people will clearly need to buy into our fundamental policies wholeheartedly before they are instated and should be instated as soon as they are available but need not be present for the launch of a pilot.

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I think we ought to start with Francais since we have the most active speakers of that langue but there's enough enthusiasm about español that we might also give that idioma a shot at the same time.

[EDIT]A língua portuguesa has some strong support too, but let's not stretch ourselves too thin.[/EDIT]

[Robert_W_King]

Something that hasn't been considered is how we will manage to communicate our policies and foundations in another language and have it mean "the same", at least both culturally and factually.  I think it would be very naive and insulting to expect that somehow those will make the exact same transition (which are clearly focused for the english speaking majority of the world).

Really, this is a complex issue; more than just "starting in another language."

Well, you have a point, but if we start with European languages, it won't be a big issue.  Obviously many of those languages span many cultures, but the languages themselves encourage the same basic expressions and our founding principles are very much rooted in European/North American thought.

That's not always the case for historical records.  For example, I'm sure that in places where the United States was involved, there are two dissenting world views on what the outcome was (this is particularly true when referencing the "founding fathers")

Hmm.  Maybe I misunderstood what you were getting at.  Different languages certainly do encourage different modes of thought (though some scholars will deny that they do so very much).  Do we have an article on linguistic determinism?  See the bio for Whorf to get the very basics.  This arises from grammar as well as vocabulary and aspect (that's a linguistics term; see the Wikipedia article for an introduction).  Good translators (we have an excellent one in the community already, though he's been inactive and I'm not sure if he generally does English to Spanish) know this and don't try to translate everything verbatim - often, they are interpreting rather than strictly translating. 

We'll need to be sure that our policies tienen sentido (literally, "have sense" but we would say "make sense") in other languages, but the underlying philosophy that informs them has a strong history throughout the west.  As far as dissenting or opposing world views on a topic, these should be expressed as fully as possible in all versions of Citizendium articles, regardless of language.  Just because someone said something in a language other than the one you're using to write an article doesn't mean you shouldn't or can't give it the full expression it deserves.

Another point which nobody mentioned is this; Would a Spanish CZ be under the same rule as the EC here? Would Larry still be the go to guy, even if he doesn't speak the same language? All interesting questions we will have to look at at some stage.

This is a more pressing concern.  I think that, while the project is in a private pilot mode, it makes sense to get it started under the direction of the current governance.  But it will need native (or at the very least, fluent) speakers to fill in the roles of Editor in Chief and members of the EC before it can launch publicly.  These people will clearly need to buy into our fundamental policies wholeheartedly before they are instated and should be instated as soon as they are available but need not be present for the launch of a pilot.

---------

I think we ought to start with Francais since we have the most active speakers of that langue but there's enough enthusiasm about español that we might also give that idioma a shot at the same time.

[EDIT]A língua portuguesa has some strong support too, but let's not stretch ourselves too thin.[/EDIT]

We're almost exactly on the same page FINALLY, Joe .  The other point that I was trying to make is that how will we make the transition from a neutral stance in english (and in the west) to other cultures and languages in the east?  Especially with historical issues and rivalries.  For example, if we were to start a German spin off, what kind of view would they have during World War II under Nazi rule versus a Russian author or editor who might have a different position (or not) entirely--these are the things we must consider. 

How can we be sure that the integrity of the wiki will span these languages and cultural differences?  That's what we should find out--ensuring this I think is the core of making a transition to other language editions.

[Joe Quick]

We're almost exactly on the same page FINALLY, Joe . 

We're getting closer, anyway. 

The other point that I was trying to make is that how will we make the transition from a neutral stance in english (and in the west) to other cultures and languages in the east?  Especially with historical issues and rivalries.  For example, if we were to start a German spin off, what kind of view would they have during World War II under Nazi rule versus a Russian author or editor who might have a different position (or not) entirely--these are the things we must consider. 

How can we be sure that the integrity of the wiki will span these languages and cultural differences?  That's what we should find out--ensuring this I think is the core of making a transition to other language editions.

I'm not convinced that this is the right way to think about this topic.  Neutrality doesn't vary across languages.  A German or Russian bias in Swahili isn't really any different than a German or Russian bias in English or Inuit: it still favors one perspective over another.  It doesn't matter how that bias is expressed; if it's biased, it's biased.

That's not to say that there won't be issues with people pushing their personal biases and it's not to say that people from different places won't be either more or less sensitive to different sorts of bias.  The point is that the simple existence of bias does not vary across languages, only its expression does.