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Author Topic: Portuguese Citizendium  (Read 12653 times)
River
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« on: October 12, 2006, 06:14:55 AM »

Do you think we will be able to see a Portuguese Citizendium next year?
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Zachary Pruckowski
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« Reply #1 on: October 12, 2006, 10:37:50 AM »

Do you think we will be able to see a Portuguese Citizendium next year?

There are two issues with porting to Portuguese:

1)  Creating quality content.  Since probably 95% of us here don't speak Portuguese, we'd have to write stuff in English and have people translate it.  Babelfish isn't going to work, because a lot of stuff is rather in-depth and doesn't lend itself to easy translation.  Also, you can't auto-translate wiki-text, you'd have to auto-translate the plain text and re-insert links, templates, cites, and all of that. At best we'd succeed at doing a rough translation of the pages.  The best way to do it is definitely getting native speakers.

2)  Spreading ourselves too thin.  We have limited resources, and as such can't devote much to recruiting for or upkeeping a Portuguese version of CZ.  We've already dropped or indefinitely postponed several ideas in the English version because of manpower concerns.

that said, there's no way to know where we'll be in a year's time.  We don't know exactly where we'll be in 2 months' time.
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Nat Krause
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« Reply #2 on: October 14, 2006, 04:19:07 PM »

FYI, there seems to be some real discord on the Portuguese Wikipedia between Brasilian Portuguese and European Portuguese users. It would be good to try to find a way to avoid that in the case of a Portuguese Citizendium.
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Larry Sanger
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« Reply #3 on: October 15, 2006, 01:06:54 AM »

Well, first we need to resolve the dispute between American English and British English!   Grin

I'm inclined to say that, somehow, we designate what language an article is written in, as we did with Nupedia, where articles were explicitly labelled or "BrE" and "AmE".  And, of course, U.S.-related articles are all in AmE, and U.K.-related articles are all in BrE.
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David91
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« Reply #4 on: October 15, 2006, 01:52:27 PM »

Not that I want to overcomplicate this (or go too far off topic) but is the distinction in "English" limited to US vs British? Living in the land of Singlish, I hear Australians. Canadians, South Africans and rather a large number of other native "English" speakers complain that they have local vocabulary and variations of syntax. Actually, I believe that simplicity is best answer wherever possible, but someone called Babel Pandora once opened this box of words and caused a lot of trouble. Could/should we resolve this arbitrarily by nominating a single reputable style manual off the shelf for all to follow in English regardless of culture?
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Larry Sanger
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« Reply #5 on: October 15, 2006, 03:00:50 PM »

David, you could well be right (or should that be might  Smiley )?

My underinformed impression was that in Australia, South Africa, etc., in formal contexts, the spelling and punctuation followed British English pretty closely.  Is this incorrect?  I mean, I could simply be wrong.  I don't mean to say there aren't other interesting dialects; of course there are.  The question is simply whether there are more than two important dialects for scholarly work.

Perhaps we should not call them "BrE" and "AmE" but instead North American English and--what, BBC-E?

If we choose just one variant based on numbers of primary speakers, it would be North American English: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/English_language#Geographical_distribution

(If based on number of primary or secondary speakers, it might be Indian English!)

Similarly, though, if we choose just one variant of Portuguese based on number of speakers, it would be Brazilian Portuguese, no?

I think it would smack of cultural imperialism to call either BrE or AmE the one official language of CZ.  It would set us up for some nasty confrontations (as WP has) over spelling, etc., to leave the matter entirely undecided.  So this is why I'm inclined to go with AmE and BrE and asking people to designate a language as "the" language of an article.  The question then is how it's decided which language it should be for a particular article!
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Nat Krause
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« Reply #6 on: October 17, 2006, 11:02:23 PM »

I think the current Wikipedia works well for English. Articles about Britain are in British English, articles about the middle part of North America are in American English, and so on for other places. Articles that aren't specific to one of those places can be written in any style, but it must be consistent throughout. There are occasional controversies about the edges of this policy, and Citizendium might do well to settle some of those more marginal points beforehand; but, the basic rule is working fairly well. Giving a clear statement, "this article is written in British/American English" might also be a good idea, rather than the current Wikipedia method of just letting the editors figure it out by reading the text.

I don't remember ever seeing anything on Wikipedia that was written in a style noticeably different from either "American English" or "British English" (or, I suppose Canadian English, which is orthographically a mix of the two). If someone tried to start writing in a very distinctly Indian English or Singlish style, I don't know if that would be seen as acceptable or not.

I think that the above solution works quite well for an English publication, because, despite the emotions involved, written British and American English are actually only minimally different. My (non-expert) impression, is that the pond separating Brazilian and European Portuguese is a bit wider, which may call for a different arrangement.
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River
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« Reply #7 on: October 18, 2006, 04:21:23 PM »

I think that articles related to Brazil should be written in Brazilian Portuguese, articles related to Portugal in European Portuguese. In others articles, should be written in the language of the main author / editor.

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geni
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« Reply #8 on: October 18, 2006, 04:47:47 PM »

I don't remember ever seeing anything on Wikipedia that was written in a style noticeably different from either "American English" or "British English" (or, I suppose Canadian English, which is orthographically a mix of the two). If someone tried to start writing in a very distinctly Indian English or Singlish style, I don't know if that would be seen as acceptable or not.

The grammer shift often gets them marked for cleanup
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Phil Wardle
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« Reply #9 on: October 24, 2006, 01:24:25 AM »

Speaking for Australians, the general rule here is to use British English spelling for most academic articles, newspapers etc. Novels and articles destined for largely American audiences however often use American English spelling for marketing reasons. Also, words such as "ass" or "trash" are often used instead of the native "arse" or "garbage"...ditto for "gas"  versus "petrol" etc.

The thing is, most Australians, New Zealanders, South Africans and indeed Britons are quite familiar both with Americanisms and American spelling. I'm not sure if the reverse is true to the same extent, but I have noticed that US forumites are starting to enjoy the novelty of learning how other English speakers define their world with native common expressions. "Hobo", "tramp" or even the Australian "swagman" are now often understood to be rough synonyms for the US "bum" (despite that term meaning " bottom" here).

I suppose what I'm getting at here is that the various spellings are hardly likely to put people off an article, or confuse them (with the possible exception of meter versus metre) but care must be taken with regional usages of often quite common terms. After all, there is hardly a part of a car(automobile, motor) that shares the same name in Australia and the US (hood vs bonnet, trunk vs boot etc).

What I do know is that regional usages are interesting in their own right and a compendium that could somehow include those usages (perhaps with alternatives in brackets) will not only define the author's heritage but also provide an opportunity to celebrate the fact that English is not a fixed language under the heel of some sort of stifling Academy.
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Sergio Luis
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« Reply #10 on: November 02, 2006, 03:42:16 PM »

I'm a minor Brazilian contributor to the Portuguese Wikipedia (that is mainly a Portugal's Wikipedia), and I hope I can shed some light in this discussion. (In fact, that's the main reason I assigned to this forum.) In advance, I apologize for any misuse I may make of the language of Shakespeare...

I think the primarily question to answer is: Will the Portuguese Citizendium be a translation from the scratch of the English Citizendium, or will it be a separate spin off taken directly from the Portuguese Wikipedia, that is only in part a translation of the English Wikipedia? At first glance, it would be better to use all the work already done in Wikipédia (as the Portuguese Wikipedia is named in Portuguese - the "e" like it is in "get" and "set"), instead of reinventing the wheel. But by doing so blindly, one would import also all the problems that already exist in the Wikipédia, that would latter be difficult or even impossible to solve.

As pointed earlier, this problems arise form the distinctions between the two main variations of the Portuguese language, the Brazilian and the Portugal's one. The distinction is greater than the one that exists between the American and British English - at least it seems to be for a non-native  English speaker like me. If you have the patience and the interest, I'd like to explain why.

(In Brazil we don't say "European Portuguese", but "Portugal's Portuguese". The redundancy sounds awkward, but is more precise, in the same way "British English", in spite of the awful echo "ish-ish", is more precise than "European English". And, I must confess here, is somewhat a pejorative joke too, suggesting that the Portuguese spoken and written in the very homeland of the language is itself as awkward as the redundant expression is.)

For Brazilians who knows English a little, the differences between American and English are minor ones. The respective accents are like the ones  from Rio de Janeiro and São Paulo, the two major cities of Brazil. Cariocas (the natives from Rio) and paulistanos (the ones from São Paulo) have no trouble comprehending one another, although they joke a lot in the way each other speak. (I'm from Rio, by the way.) But between Brazilian and Portugal's varieties of Portuguese the discrepancies are so great that Brazilians sometimes have trouble in comprehending what a native from Portugal say. Indeed, Portuguese actors who sometimes come to work in the famous Brazilian soap operas have to undergo a short language course, with even some phonoaudiological support, to "brazilianize" their speaking, so that they can be perfectly understood by their broad audience!

The reverse situation, however, does not apply: Portuguese natives usually have no trouble in understanding Brazilian speakers. The reason is the way the Language evolved in the both sides of the Atlantic Ocean. In Portugal, by influence of vicinal languages, the vowels in time were reduced, even truncated, and the general speaking became quicker, more gutural and, to Brazilian ears, somewhat "curled". In Brazil, however, the vowels were not only preserved but in time reinforced by the influence of several Amerindian and African languages, and the resulting speaking became slower, softer and, to Portuguese ears, somewhat "stretched". (A short example is how Portuguese speakers pronounce "Rio". By the spelling of the word, originally it should have been pronounced "rEE-o", almost like you English speakers say, "rEE-ow". Cariocas themselves say "rEE-yoo", while Portugal natives say only "rEEw" - the "y" and the "w" considered, in Portuguese, semi-vowels, and not consonants. Try to say it and feel the difference!) And, in any language, fast-curled-speaking people are hardly understood by slow-stretched-speaking ones, although these later can easily be understood by the former ones. So, if any of you ever want to learn Portuguese, and want to be well understood both in Portugal and Brazil, do the Brazilian way!

The differences between the written Portuguese in Brazil and Portugal, which are more crucial for projects like Wikipedia and Citizendium, are lesser than in the spoken language, but again they are greater than the differences between the American and the British English. In English flavours there are only few ortographical and morpho-sintatical variations, because the very own structure of the language is somehow rigid. In Portuguese, however, although the Ortogaphy is more standardized, the Grammar rules are far more flexible than in English. For example, a phrase like "Where are you?" in English has no other way to be said and written than... "Where are you?". In Portuguese, however, the corresponding phrase can be correctly said and written in several acceptable ways: "Onde está você?" (the corresponding, word by word, to the English phrase), or "Onde você está?", or "Você está onde?", or even the less common ones, "Está você onde?" and "Está onde você?". And this is a phrase with only three words! Just imagine the great majority of the other ones...

With a so flexible sintax, we have several words, declinations, verbal tenses, noun placements, pronouns usages, etc., that are characteristic of Brazilian Portuguese, and other ones that are typical of Portugal's Portuguese. Brazilian speakers are also more receptive to words imported from other Languages (French in the past, mostly English nowadays), just adapting their pronounciations immediately, and their spellings some time latter, in spite of protests of some purist grammar writers; while Portugal's speakers are far more nationalists and xenophobics in this subject, proning to use obscure pre-existing terms with new meanings, than to simply import and adapt new words. These differences are not to the extent of making a text written in a side of the Atlantic unreadable in the other side, but they do make it seems "weird" across the Ocean. So, how this mutual weirdness is addressed in Wikipédia?

I think that articles related to Brazil should be written in Brazilian Portuguese, articles related to Portugal in European Portuguese. In others articles, should be written in the language of the main author / editor.

Just like this way! It seems perfect, but it causes unsuspected troubles. First of all is the name of the articles themselves. The Cambrian geoglogical period, for example, in Brazilian Portuguese it is "Cambriano", in Portugal's it is "Câmbrico". This can easily be solved with proper redirects, and in fact it is solved this way in the specific example. The major problem, however, is that, as a polite rule, Wikipédia administrators (the majority of them from Portugal) established that an article created in a variant of the language should remain in these forever; that is, there cannot be "translations" from Portugal's Portuguese to Brazilian Portuguese, neither vice-versa, of course. So, a Brazilian editor who wanted to edit an article created in Portugal's Portuguese, or a Portuguese editor wanting to edit an article created in Brazilian Portuguese, would both of them have to write in a non-natural way for themselves. The result is that Brazilian editors refrain from editing articles written in Portugal's Portuguese, and so the Portuguese editors do to the articles written in Brazilian Portuguese. Therefore, there is no real colaborative work of Brazilian and Portuguese speakers in the articles; each group have ultimately its separate domain in Wikipédia. It is in fact a hybrid, chimeric, two-in-one Wikipedia! Needless to say how this aparthaid situation sets down the potential and even the very purpose of the Wikipédia.

I don't think there's other way to avoid this situation in Citizendium than having two separate projects, for Portugal's and for Brazilian Portuguese. Two distinct projects will surely take a longer time to iniciate and to mature than just one for the language as a hole, but I think each one will develop in a more solid, sound, consistent way.
« Last Edit: November 03, 2006, 07:52:18 AM by Sergio Luis » Logged
River
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« Reply #11 on: November 02, 2006, 05:40:17 PM »

I think the authors / editors of Citizendium will be mature enough to avoid fights between Portugueses and Brazilians that happen in Portuguese Wikipedia. In PT WP everybody fights with everybody for irrelevant reasons, independent of the nationality.
To have a Portuguese version of Citizendium we have to join forces, it is not easy to create one PT CZ, imagine with two different versions.
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Sergio Luis
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« Reply #12 on: November 03, 2006, 08:49:12 AM »

River, when I joined the PT WP I thought the same way. To people that defended the idea of two separate Wikipédias I used to argue that it would be a waste of efforts, due to the considerable re-work and the limited task force. That the distance of the main flavors of the language itself are not so great that per se justify two distinct projects. That the contributors would be mature enough to address linguistic and nacionalist controversies. But what I saw there convinced me I was wrong.

Of course there are intestine fights that in principle are independent from nacionalities, but as the Brazilians and Portugueses come into them, indeed sometimes with the good will to settle them down, frequently these questions turn into foolish disputes around the two groups. Many contributors went away because of this, and others, like me, who were very active when first joined the project, in time reduced their participation a lot, to avoid fall into futile controversies. Other people, knowing what happens inside the project, don't even risk join it to try to help. The result is that, if you check the PT WP, you will see that many articles don't evolve beyond the stub phase, and even those who manage evolving are generally poorer than the correlate ones in other WPs, specially the English one.

PT WP suffers a basic problem from its very origin: it was founded by Portugueses, while the Brazilians are the main stock of the users of the language on the web. And, the same way (and roughly at the same time) Brazilians took Orkut by assault, Portugueses intended to make Wikipédia a place for them own. So, as the Brazilians began joining PT WP, the Portugueses administrators, fearing to loose control of the project, began to act like authentic dictators, trying desperately to avoid the inevitable. The same way Americans tend naturally to be the main task force in EN WP, Brazilians tend to be the main task force in PT WP, or the CZ PT, if this one ever starts. Trying to prevent this is an auto-sabotage.

So, its sad for me to say this, but Brazilians and Portugueses in projects like WP or CZ should be treated not like mature people, but more like bulling fighting children in school, and be set apart for not knocking each other down. It would indeed be more difficult to iniciate two projects instead of one, it would take more time to start and to develop each one. But sincerely, I would prefer not having a CZ PT at all than having one with the same unsolvable problems of PT WP.
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River
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« Reply #13 on: November 04, 2006, 04:53:56 AM »

So, its sad for me to say this, but Brazilians and Portugueses in projects like WP or CZ should be treated not like mature people, but more like bulling fighting children in school, and be set apart for not knocking each other down. It would indeed be more difficult to iniciate two projects instead of one, it would take more time to start and to develop each one. But sincerely, I would prefer not having a CZ PT at all than having one with the same unsolvable problems of PT WP.
Maybe you are right. Maybe a "Brazilian Citizendium" would be easy to get. I think a Brazilian CZ would attract experts and would be much more popular in Brazil than Wikipedia. PT WP is not a reliable source and it is ignored by experts.
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Sergio Luis
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« Reply #14 on: November 04, 2006, 11:27:36 AM »

Being realistict and supposing that there will not be enough work power to iniciate two Citizendiums in Portuguese, what can be done, if not to avoid, at least to minimize the conflicts that sure will arise between Portuguese and Brazilian contributors? Here goes my suggestions:

1- No current or former contributor, neither Portuguese or Brazilian, of the PT WP should ever be accepted as an editor or a constable of PT CZ, because they would just transfer their conflict-prone behaviour to Citizendium. This rule may be unfair with some good contributors of PT WP who could give an important contribution to PT CZ, but unless one can thoroughly investigate the behavioural history in Wikipédia of such a candidate, he or she should never be accepted in Citizendium.

2- In the beginning of the project, there should be rigorously equal numbers of Portugueses and Brazilians among the editors and constables, and ideally there should also be some editors and constables from other ex-colonies of Portugal - Angola, Moçambique, Cabo Verde, Guiné Bissau, São Tomé e Príncipe and East Timor. (Hey, the Portuguese language is theirs too!)

3- As the project unfolds, a new editor or constable from Portugal or Brazil should be accepted only if a contributor of the same category from the other country also joins simultaneously, or if one of the same nationality quits or have recently quit, so that the two main groups would remain numericaly close to each other. While these conditions are not satisfied, the candidate must be in a waiting state.

4- When the time of waiting for a candidate to editor or constable, due to the preceding rule, begins to exceed frequently some predefined amount (some months, for example), then that rule should be relaxed, but not abolished altogether. That is, a candidate who waits that predefined time should be accepted, even if the preceeding rule's conditions fail to occur. This would mean that the people from one of the two main nationalities interested in contribute with the project are becoming scarce. Trying to force an equilibrium between the two groups in such conditions would just starve the project to death. From this point ahead, as we say here in Brazil, "God's will be done"...

These restrictive rules would surely delay the start of a unique Citizendium in Portuguese and slow down its initial development, but hopefully they would avoid Citizendium to repeat the Wikipédia story.
« Last Edit: November 04, 2006, 12:53:02 PM by Sergio Luis » Logged
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